Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





RE: who needs other palos than bulerias?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: <<   <   1 [2] 3    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
There's something about a small group of good listeners that stay with the flamenco for several hours and everyone becomes a bit fatigued and the players get more loose and don't stress. Sometimes something really magical and moving happens, and sometimes not.


Although, to be quite frank with you, the fatigue and the magic could be just boiled down to whatever alcoholic or other substances you took (too much of?) that night. Because i know i had some fatiguing and magical moments during the past weeks, and there was no flamenco involved at all, so... haha

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 7:28:03
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
Deniz, I think estebanana is making a good point and you're just laughing at him. There's a lot to be said for the distraction that arises from monotony. I'm no expert on other people's spirituality, but I think this concept is involved in many components of religion and meditation.

About the subject of this thread, flamenco has been going strong for at least 130 years, not only in terms of existence of the art form but as a popular and well-defined art form. If you consider the different formats (dance-oriented flamenco, "stage" flamenco, party flamenco, guitar-oriented flamenco...) and regional tendencies (Cádiz, Huelva, Seville, Málaga, Granada, Madrid, Barcelona...), there are hundreds of variations, many of which have fallen into disuse, as Ricardo has pointed out.

It's hard to make a general statement about parties because they differ from region to region. At some parties, when the music turns to malagueñas, some or all of the group will react visibly, expressing satisfaction and eager anticipation. Same with Huelva, cantiñas and siguiriyas, depending on where you are and who you're with.

Although a poor diet is nothing to brag about, I have to agree that bulerías is a very complete style. A professional performance could easily include three or four short bulerías between other styles, something that doesn't really work with other styles.

_____________________________

Be here now.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 8:14:58
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to NormanKliman) 
Well i have a very limited amount of appreciation for spirituality and religion, which is where we probably will diverge. But we should converge at the point of drugs like alcohol, etc. being an major part in flamenco gatherings, no? I dont mean this in a derogatory way actually, its all fine for me. Each to his own. But on the next day, after the party is over, i prefer to have a sober, crystal clear mind and consciousness of what has happened, and esteban's post seemed to contrast that hard. After all, truth is the only spirituality that is of worth.

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 8:54:15
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14843
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to NormanKliman) 
quote:

Deniz, I think estebanana is making a good point and you're just laughing at him. There's a lot to be said for the distraction that arises from monotony. I'm no expert on other people's spirituality, but I think this concept is involved in many components of religion and meditation.


Not just monotony, but the repetition, and overall group mentality opening doors in the mind and altering perception and creating a feeling or state of mind that seems to have an infectious "energy" of sorts. Same for music gathering as religious group experiences and voodoo trances, meditation etc, drugs can help or hurt that state depending. To help out deniz, I personally feel it can scientifically all be whittled down to different forms of hypnosis...people's mind opening up to suggestive thoughts feelings visions ideas...caused both by the repetition, chanting singing rhythm etc, often the musician/priest/group leader is hypnotizer and a subject of hypnosis along with the rest. They just don't realize they are doing it. Even psychiatrists that use hypno therapy to pull out what they think are repressed memories, are doing nothing more than suggestion (implanting creative false images and feeling and memories that seem real to the patient) by digging deeper with questions. Very dangerous because for all intents and purposes from
the point of view of the people being hypnotized, it is a very "real" experience.

Ok way off topic....

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 13:39:08
 
estebanana

Posts: 9369
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
I did not mean to imply in any way I was reaching for a religious state with my imaginary group of listeners. I was really saying flamenco parties ebb and flow and at some point they might get a second wind and start getting interesting around 3am. Even if everyone is tired someone might sing and because it is so good the party wakes back up.

The sculptor Alberto Giacometti told an art writer in an interview that he often would get the best out of himself when he worked for long hours. He said that at a certain point he would be very tired and out of continuing he would drop preconceptions of what he thought he should be doing and out of a kind of not caring he would make discoveries he would not have made if he were forcing it.

When flamenco people get together I think this kind of thing can happen to a small group of careful listeners. Perhaps earlier in the evening everyone was scrutinizing the cante willfully, but later at 3am you drop your guard to what you think is good cante and are more open to taking in the beauty. At that point you simply listen. The beautiful thing is that in flamenco a small group of like minded folks can become intimate by deep listening and reach that moment of openness at the same time and share it.

I believe when a singer or guitarist or dancer knows that the others in the room are ready and in that state of mind they can become unguarded themselves. And like Giacommetti show something about themselves through their arte that they may not show when performing on the big stage. That is magical and usually unforgettable.

That it closer to what I was trying to explain.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 20:19:49
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I did not mean to imply in any way I was reaching for a religious state with my imaginary group of listeners. I was really saying flamenco parties ebb and flow and at some point they might get a second wind and start getting interesting around 3am. Even if everyone is tired someone might sing and because it is so good the party wakes back up.


Oops, then im sorry to have jumped on you. Thats a very simple statement or even a true observation and i misinterpreted your initial post as to be going into the route a mystical/mythical/duendesque "un"-clarification/overcimplication of a simple feeling like fun, or enjoyment.

About hypnosis: i dont know much about it, but it seems speculative that you can be hypnotized and play the guitar? I also remember having read that not all people can be hypnotized, and i cant imagine that you can hypnotize yourself and make yourself get out of that state. Because if you could command your state of mind like that, why would you need flamenco for that?

[To sum up basically all posts till here, i will say that my observation is that artists and aficionados seem to have a problem in stating that they play/listen to flamenco simply because its fun. It seems so profane, like thats not enough. All these explanations that try to overcomplicate flamenco playing/listening (over in the sense of: more than just fun) basically derive from the need to "heighten" the flamenco taste and activity. That again derives from flamenco, or arts in general, being not regarded as something THAT important generally in society. Funniest example i have read so far is that they said Mozart's music would make you more intelligent.]

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2012 11:00:29
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Vicente Amigo’s Granaina ‘hypnotizes’ me, every time I hear it I stop whatever I am doing and fall in a vein of musing.



_____________________________

gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2012 11:52:18
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to gj Michelob) 
And how about Vicente's fabulous Soleares and Tarantas! His first Alegrias is equally exiting as any Bulerias i know...so is PDL La Barrosa.

Personally i love every (well played) Palo.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2012 13:07:43
 
Flamencito

Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
One of the things that i love about Flamenco from earlier years, is that it has more profound qualities (in my opinion).

A nice quote from Albert Einstein might have some relevance:

"Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler"

Making things more complex can easily make purposes vanish... Like 'banking-products/services'... It might sound good in the first place... but maybe it's just misleading.

Things come and go and things come back from being (almost) gone. If it's up to me the styles that are getting less popular should have a 'revival' the sooner the better. Luckily people made recordings!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2012 14:32:55
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14843
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

i will say that my observation is that artists and aficionados seem to have a problem in stating that they play/listen to flamenco simply because its fun.


Have you ever been in severe emotional pain? In many cases art and music is more than "fun' it is like a drug that you use to numb the pain inside. It can also be addictive, but often much more rewarding than drugs or alcohol or other diversions. People talk of cante chico and such as it's not deep but that is not always fair to say.

About DOING flamenco, there is very little "fun" in it at all, it's hard sometimes painful work in and of itself. The satisfaction of doing it better and better is more akin to needing more and more of an addictive drug or being obsessed with a lover or something of that sort. The "fun" part is not so easily achieved and not always getting it is the driving force.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2012 14:34:16
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

Well i have a very limited amount of appreciation for spirituality and religion, which is where we probably will diverge.


I disagree. (Just kidding.)

quote:

i cant imagine that you can hypnotize yourself and make yourself get out of that state


Daydreaming seems to be very similar.

_____________________________

Be here now.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2012 15:02:27
 
estebanana

Posts: 9369
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

Oops, then im sorry to have jumped on you. Thats a very simple statement or even a true observation and i misinterpreted your initial post as to be going into the route a mystical/mythical/duendesque "un"-clarification/overcimplication of a simple feeling like fun, or enjoyment.


It's cool dude. I'm just getting some milk for my coffee after a hard night of spiritual juergas.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2012 18:11:32
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
Been looking at your pic in contemplation, Stephen.

Blessed who can live in almost any civilized ways without being harrased for outfits, haircuts, meals, pets, drinks, glances, choice of company and their outfits, haircuts, meals, pets, drinks, glances ...
I am sitting in this retarded part of the world and being so homesick for good sense, and it´s getting worse from day to day. Probably not far away from being lynched.
F*** the darkside of Middle-Ages and long, long live muchacho Stephen before the fridge rack!
-

Sorry for OT; ´would be great if all of palos sustained.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2012 19:31:45
 
estebanana

Posts: 9369
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
I am deeply and truly flattered you would think the man in the photo is me Ruphus. However I cannot claim to be the owner of the resplendent bathrobe and sunglass set.

That man is The Dude, Jeff Bridges the actor playing The Dude in the Coen Brothers epic film The Big Lebowski.

If only I were as cool as his Dudeness, The Dudeal Lama AkA His Dudeship...

Cheers,
The Dudebanana abides

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2012 2:17:58
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
Damn, could had sworn it was you.

Anyway, I can only warn you from moving to any ancient conservations of obligation and superstition.
You´d find yourself an encaged bird for quite certain.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2012 6:54:12
 
Flamencito

Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
What about this palo?

http://youtu.be/g7cOxywcDTA
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2012 15:09:15
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
That may be the only palo I could do without......the world might be a better place without garrotin.....

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2012 16:27:18
 
Flamencito

Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
wow, it sounds like you really HATE it?! Makes me wonder why...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2012 16:37:57
 
estebanana

Posts: 9369
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
Oh now now, don't be like that. It's an innocent ida e vuelta palo that is a law abiding citizen.

On this foro every palo is innocent until proven fakemenco.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2012 17:49:59
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
I don't trust those ida y vuelta palos that one particular!

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2012 17:59:03
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
In many cases art and music is more than "fun' it is like a drug that you use to numb the pain inside. ...

The satisfaction of doing it better and better is more akin to needing more and more of an addictive drug or being obsessed with a lover or something of that sort. The "fun" part is not so easily achieved and not always getting it is the driving force.


Youre right in saying that art can satisfy more feelings than just the feeling of fun/joy. About the second part: I know the feeling you mean, i can relate to that a little bit (not as much as you of course), but i still think, like most drugs (not all), its not the "things" that (magically, without a reason) draw a person's attention, but rather the persons who relate to them in a special, appreciative way (with their own reasons why they do it). What you perceive as a driving force, could be you driving the force (LOL). Also think about this: art has a very different effect on different people. Some people dont relate to it at all. In that it doesnt share the common qualities of certain hard drugs, which make you addicted even in small amounts/at first contact etc
On a last note: i believe everything can serve as a "drug", ie in the sense that YOU MAKE yourself addicted to it. It has been reported that people can be addicted to eating chocolate or buying useless things or whatever arbitrary actions they THINK they have to do. I believe that supports my viewpoint that the reasons for human behaviour in that regard is to be searched all inside people's heads and not inside the objects as an intrinsic quality or something.

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2012 21:21:02
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14843
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

I believe that supports my viewpoint that the reasons for human behaviour in that regard is to be searched all inside people's heads and not inside the objects as an intrinsic quality or something.


In that case, to live all we need is air food and water? See how long life goes with just that! Well, reproduction is necessary so sex...but that opens up other things like "love". Need it or not...only "want" it? Love can be an addiction, so can music and many things that involve emotions. Trying to take the emotional aspects out of music to say it's only fun, is same as saying there is no love, only good feelings of sex. Emotional things are in the head yes...but our entire experience of the outside world is thanks of stuff going on up there.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2012 21:38:14
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Difference between saying music has no emotional qualities vs music is nothing but emotional qualities that are created by human mind (composer) and consumed by human mind (listener). There is nothing that "makes" them do anything, its "them" doing "it", for which they have all their own specific reasons. This is also different from saying music is something magical that makes you addicted for no reason. It is the SPECIFIC qualities of it that some people DO find interesting enough to pursue/consume/study, and others dont. For example you may connect a song to a girlfriend or a special situation... all emotional reasons, but they are YOUR specific reasons, it doesnt need to have anything to do with the music as an intrinsic quality. Other cases are if you do like the music for itself, it is again YOUR taste that determines what qualities you like and which you dont like.

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2012 22:24:45
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to Doitsujin) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

Come on ...see the truth.. when friends gather... what do we play for fun?... Its always bulerias.. Only in rare cases mybe some other stuff.

Face it... flamenco is 90% bulerias.. and the funny thing is..when amateurs gather.. 90% cant play.. maybe one ****ty bulerias falseta. But in our minds we play it great. Coz after trying it 100 times alone at home we got it down 1 time good..and that sticks in our imagination...

Flamenco is ****ing hard. And you can´t play if you are the 99 out of 100.

Face it. Its so sad.


....just needed to vent a little.


Ah, better again I see!
Back on the other extreme end of the line.

Might be true for you, and many others, but that's just what it is...see the the truth!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 18 2012 18:42:59
 
estebanana

Posts: 9369
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

Difference between saying music has no emotional qualities vs music is nothing but emotional qualities that are created by human mind (composer) and consumed by human mind (listener). There is nothing that "makes" them do anything, its "them" doing "it", for which they have all their own specific reasons.
\


Except that music is fundamentally not cerebral. It's visceral. Music goes directly into our nervous system and often what we think is taste or refinement or being a connoseur is more about base stuff. The thinking part comes later. Music is more about vibration washing over you, our brains just trick us into thinking we are thinking about it.

After that we make aesthectic judgements and classifications that are more based on social conditioning. We are really pretty dumb and taste is nothing more than social peer conditioning, especially if your girlfriend likes Van Halen, por ejemplo. You'll get more sex if you like Van Halen too.



_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 18 2012 19:02:37
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

if your girlfriend likes Van Halen, por ejemplo. You'll get more sex if you like Van Halen too.

Is it really worth it? haha jk, Eddie's aight......

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 18 2012 20:23:37
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14843
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

all emotional reasons, but they are YOUR specific reasons, it doesnt need to have anything to do with the music as an intrinsic quality.


eVen though the reasons are personal and specific, doesn't make them less significant to the world at large. AFter taking a sampling you learn about both similarities and differences of both groups involved and learn it's not totally random. When a very important artist walks in the room with a crowd of people, anybody that does not know who the individual is is not affected at all necessarily by that person's presence.

But what happens is the knowledgeable artists in the room suddenly become aware and they get a fear or excitement, and the fear/excitement spreads and before you know it there is this tension in the room that almost everyone can feel and you can almost cut with a knife. Again, even though it's individual, the spreading of the thought feeling or "magic" if you will, I personally feel is part of this hypnosis thing...when your mind is closed it remains closed, but even if there are different types of "keys" for different people (emotions, memories, tastes, likes dislikes, biases, fetishes, nostalgia, drugs or alcohol, etc), when the doors open it is easy to feel a sort of "collective" experience happening. I have noticed in the case of music, the predictable and enjoyable rhythm or groove is often a gateway to the "zone" or "groove" and I consider it a key to unlock doors in the mind. Rhythmic challenged people don't feel it and experience nothing.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 18 2012 20:24:06
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

I have noticed in the case of music, the predictable and enjoyable rhythm or groove is often a gateway to the "zone" or "groove" and I consider it a key to unlock doors in the mind. Rhythmic challenged people don't feel it and experience nothing.


I agree completely. It seems that some people will never have rhythm, presumably because that part of their brain never gets activated. Maybe someone knows of some research on the subject.

_____________________________

Be here now.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 18 2012 23:54:28
 
estebanana

Posts: 9369
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to NormanKliman) 
quote:

It seems that some people will never have rhythm, presumably because that part of their brain never gets activated. Maybe someone knows of some research on the subject.


Musicophilia by Oliver Sachs.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2012 0:01:43
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: who needs other palos than bulerias? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

It seems that some people will never have rhythm, presumably because that part of their brain never gets activated. Maybe someone knows of some research on the subject.


Musicophilia by Oliver Sachs.


That seems to be a very interesting book. I hope it has something to say about the (dis)ability of musicians to produce superb rhythm as well. I'm able to recognize and appreciate superb rhythm when i hear it but i find it very difficult to produce it myself. It becomes better when i study on a serious and daily base (which hardly ever happens) but it most certainly doesn't come natural to me so i consider myself to be rhythmic challenged as well, one way or the other.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2012 0:40:34
Page:   <<   <   1 [2] 3    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: <<   <   1 [2] 3    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

5.859375E-02 secs.