A Tentative view on Solea por Buleria

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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

A Tentative view on Solea por Buleria

Esteemed Forumites,
This is backed up with no research, it's just an idea for your amusement and debate.

I've heard that SpB is...
1. Speeded up Solea in A key.
2. Slowed down Buleria.
3. Solea in A played to end in Bulerias. (Solea for Bulerias)
4. Soleares in Alegrias tempo with Soleares chords.

I think both 1 and 2 are out IMO.
3 sounds plausible, but I can't say I've heard much SpB finishing with Bulerias. Sabicas does it in his SpB solo on the Camen Amaya LP, but to be honest, I've heard more Traditional Soleares end in Bulerias than SpB.
4 This is certainly true, but doesn't explain why it's known as Soleares por Bulerias (or Bulerias por Soleares) rather than Soleares por Alegrias.

OK...a possible explanation for your speculation (and scorn LOL!).

Take this rhythm.. (I'll try to avoid numbers)

Rhythm A ************

Rhythm B ************

Now tap each out.

I guess most folk would hear A as Soleares and B as Bulerias?

Now if you take a standard SpB compás and divide it into half beats, giving 24 (half) beats and tap your foot to rhythm B (twice to cover the 24 beats), you can hear how it fits in nicely with a lot of SpB falsetas.

It's a little more difficult with cante since the cantaor will sometimes stretch a note a bit as in Soleares, but the structure is there IMO.
It doesn't work well with traditional Soleares (in E).

Therefore, my idea is that SpB is in fact a "hybrid" form made from both palos, with the Bulerias rhythm running through it at twice the speed, which gives this palo it's bouncy feel.
Hence Solea por Bulerias or Bulerias por Solea.
As usual with polyrhythms, the performer will often switch from one to the other to fit his needs.

Just a bit of speculation!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2005 9:02:05

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: A Tentative view on Solea por Bu... (in reply to Ron.M)

This can´t be good!! Everybody run and hide!

PM me when the fight is over ok

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2005 9:43:38

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: A Tentative view on Solea por Bu... (in reply to Ron.M)

hmm I dont understand where the differece between r 1 and r2 is. Its the same compas... You play it in rounds so its not important where to start. You an start a solea on 10 or 1 or 7... You can play bulerias stay in the speed change to siguirillas and back to bulerias.. So it could depend on that I dont understand all your words coz of my english that I dont see the problem there or the clou.^^

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2005 9:51:19

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: A Tentative view on Solea por Bu... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

I dont see the problem there or the clou.^^

You just wait! Now. Run for cover!! and bring beer, it might be awhile

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2005 10:48:37

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: A Tentative view on Solea por Bu... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Doitsujin,
Yeah, I agree, but what I'm saying is to fit 2 compases of rhythm B into 1 compás of rhythm A.
Rhythm B is running at twice the speed of Rhythm A. (B is doing half beats).

Henrik....I agree.. break out the Flak Jackets

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2005 11:03:29

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: A Tentative view on Solea por Bu... (in reply to Ron.M)

Ok, I took my leisure seat with adjustable squab.....and some beer and my old skate protection...... eh... now Im ready. 2 compases o a in one of b.. still sounds really complicated.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2005 11:48:57

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: A Tentative view on Solea por Bu... (in reply to Ron.M)

The way it was explained to me is that it was a seperate palo with its own letra and melodies, and this is the main thing in any palo. The rest of the characteristic falsetas and accompaniment are secondary...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2005 14:51:38

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: A Tentative view on Solea por Bu... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Mike,
Sounds like they gave you a really great explanation as to why it's called "Solea por Buleria".....
"Just because it is!"

I wish I could afford to go to one of those schools

cheers

Ron

PS..
Q: Why does a Flamenco Guitar have a golpeador?
A: Because all Flamenco Guitars have one...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2005 14:59:54

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A Tentative view on Solea por Bu... (in reply to Ron.M)

Just listen to some different cante. Solea with the guitar playing in the medio key, and specific "solea por bulerias" or "bulerias por solea". You will notice the guitar does pretty much the same thing, but the SINGING is different. Listen to Zambo's Gloria Bendita. He sings both Solea accompanied por medio, and Solea por bulerias as different tracks. They are very different even though the guitar work is similar.

There are many forms that the guitar does the same thing as whatever typical palo, but the melody is very different. Cana or Polo vs Solea for example. Dancing is just about the rhythm. Every dance of solea or solea por bulerias will end up in bulerias at the end. Solea, Solea por bulerias, and bulerias are 3 different song forms, even if you tried to perform them ALL at the same tempo. A dance will mix song forms as the tempo changes.

The truth is, it DOES feel kind of difficult to drive the super slow rhythm required by some dancers, if you play solea in the medio key. Not sure why, but arriba works better very slow.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2005 15:46:02

Tenshu

Posts: 150
Joined: Oct. 18 2003
From: Belgium

RE: A Tentative view on Solea por Bu... (in reply to Ricardo)

Duende, can you post a sound clip maybe of the difference you mentioned here?

quote:

Actually in this summer course i tock Arcadio Marin explained Soleá por buleria to be played more "bouncy" and with "faster"and "jumpy" caracter. He demonstrated by playing a slow soleá in E and then by playing the same tempo in E but with the Por buleria feeling.

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-T

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2005 19:30:17

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: A Tentative view on Solea por Bu... (in reply to Tenshu)

ok I will.

I tryed but i have to do it properly in the tomorrow. It was harder than it sounded when
he did it.

Basicaly play with the feel of a bulerias over a slow solea loop could give you an idea.

NOTE! Important!

NOT a buleria but buleria FEELING. the bounchy "up" feeling.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2005 19:40:10

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: A Tentative view on Solea por Bu... (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron, why is your name Ron? Why is Scotland called Scotland?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2005 3:17:44

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: A Tentative view on Solea por Bu... (in reply to Ricardo)

Go for Ricardos suggestion. To me the guitarist plays in that bulerias "up" "bouncy" way i was talking about. Even in the soleá. "campanas del olvio"

Henrik

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2005 7:55:02

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: A Tentative view on Solea por Bu... (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron,

I always thought of it in a very simplistic way and never bothered to analyse it.

Solea and Buleria rhythms are interchangeable and each with a different feel.

SpB was Solea played 'within' Buleria. In other words Buleria would go slow and become Solea played in medio (Buleria) key. This has Buleria feel but it's Solea.

BpS was the reverse, Buleria played within Solea so that it was faster but played using Solea chordings.

I don't have the recording to hand and can't quote the detail, but Paco Pena played (one of those early LP's) a great Solea (It was called Solea) and it's only when you try to play it you find it's in medio key. Do you recall?

Can't offer anything with regard to the Cante.

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2005 12:34:09

aloysius

Posts: 233
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
From: Adelaide, Australia

RE: A Tentative view on Solea por Bu... (in reply to Jim Opfer)

A great example of a Solea (not por Buleria) in A is on Viejin's album "algo que decir".

The main point here for me is the amount of rubato, more than the speed - the rhythm of a SPB tends to chug along at an even pace. This give a feel of forward momentum. Also SPB falsetas often tend to be phrased from around beats 1 or 1&, and Buleria falsetas from around beats 9 - 12. The cante is certainly different as has been pointed out. I think I see what Ron is getting at with the doubled up compas thing, although I see this happening alot with plain Solea as well - for instance the standard first escobilla of a danced solea.

- Aloysius

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www.guitarsketches.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2005 0:52:09

larone

Posts: 242
Joined: Nov. 19 2004

RE: A Tentative view on Solea por Bu... (in reply to Ron.M)

I was drunk the other night and said "hey, let's play a solerias"
So i've invented a new flamenco song. Only to be played when drunk and confused

You can count to 10, 11, or 12 it just doesn't matter. And then let's not forget the possibility of Solerias Por Bulea.......

tee hee
Larone

Ps: Do i drink too much?? I think that's just the flamenco way.....it takes away the pain of 6-8hours of practice a day.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2005 3:47:06

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