off subject recuerdos

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rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

off subject recuerdos

off the subject of flamenco but related to guitar. I have tried to play recuerdos for about 5 yrs. I have excellent teachers who are impressed with my progress, but I am still not happy. I have played it staccato, slowly, as fast as I can, just played the chords to get used to the fast changes, just played the trem, etc etc. In short about every different combination you can think of. I have even played it with a flamenco trem p,i,a,m,i as opposed to the classical trem of p, a, m, i it calls for and it still falls apart. I can play it fairly respectable until I get around 120 and then either the trem starts to become uneven or I cant make the chords changes cleanly. I try and play this song at least once a day and it has become standard for me no matter what else I practice to end the day with one effort at it. I have tried playing it extremely slow as in melancholy and as fast as I possible can caution to the wind and the result is typically the same. I know the initial thought is to keep at it at some point it will come, and perhaps I have reached the limit of my artistry with this tune, but I can play other trem pieces faster and cleaner, as in luminosa or almoradi. it is this particular tune that seems to be a nemesis.. I have even avoided it for two weeks and when Icome back the same result. Any of the excellent players here have the same problem with a particular song? I would think for all I have played it that it would be flawlesss. And its not just me, when I tape it , I can hear the errors so its not that Im being a perfectionist or whatever. Any comments are appreciated. thanks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 20 2005 14:18:33

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to rickm)

I know nothing about Classical style playing, but it sounds to me that you have a problem of approach or technique which you are only reinforcing each time you practise.
As Ricardo says "Practise makes permanent...not perfect!"

I've lost count of the things I've had to unlearn due to hearing or doing something incorrectly.

I think it's something that a really good teacher could home in on and sort out.

Why don't you make a video of you playing the piece and post it?

There are some really good analysts here like Todd, Ricardo, Miguel etc who play or have played Classical.

I reckon without a Video then any advice would just be kinda general?

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 20 2005 15:26:06

rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to rickm)

that sounds like an interesting approach, however I have no ability to make a video. I do agree I might be reinforcing bad habits, but even when I slow it waaaay down and then try and speed it up the same things seems to occur. it seems to be in the translation from very slow to a respectable playing speed (so it actually sounds like recuerdos) that it falls apart. bye the way, my measuring stick for the piece, so to speak is parkenings version and I think he plays it very eloquently. I can sort of keep up with him, but not with the same timbre et.c

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 20 2005 15:39:37

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to rickm)

quote:

I know the initial thought is to keep at it at some point it will come,

Actually thats not my initial thought at all.

I think its a common mistake to keep banging away at something for ages (and boy is five years a long time!) in the hope that someday it will work out. Think about what you are doing - everyday you finish your practice with your unhappy rendition of this. Everyday you are repeating the same errors and grinding all those mistakes into your subconcious. You are rigidly practicing your mistakes, but also finishing your practice session on something that is presently out of your reach, that you know you can't play yet. Neither of these things are good.

I won't bother with the usual tremolo tips/exercises, you obviously know all this and IMO its not what you need.

Give it a rest! leave it for a while (months) and end your prac sessions on something you play that makes you feel happy. Keep you trem chops up with something else.

Lots of guitarists feel they reach plateaus in their technique, and find it had to get to the next level with things. My view is that the moment when things suddenly move up a gear is when something very subtle changes. You might not be aware of what that is, but as soon as you body feels what it likes to do that different thing that works, you better be paying attention because remembering that sensation is the key to improvement.

Improvement is, by definition, change. Think about it.

PS When you come back to it, try a different edition (different fingering) this will help too as you will have to concentrate and won't fall into those habits as easily. Stanley Yates used to give away a good one on his site. Also, if you don't already, practice the pice without the tremolo so you can nail the fingering ie play it all with just one note in the melody - PiPiPi get it? But only after a long break!

PPS Ron, just read your post but I've just typed all this and couldn't be bothered to edit!

_____________________________

Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 20 2005 15:45:12

Mark2

Posts: 1882
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to rickm)

My advice is to record yourself and identify the rough spots. Then concentrate on those. I always played it with the flamenco tremelo-my teacher was a flamenco and that's the way he did it. I like it better that way-slower and more majestic.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 20 2005 17:16:24

rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to rickm)

good advice all, fyi I play it with pipi until my fingers bleed at around 180+ I dont seem to have a problem with other trem pieces, either flamenco trem or classical trem. ITs only as soon as I kick into recuerdos that it seems as if I have a mental block to that piece. Which jjust might be the problem. I dont think that I'm not ready for it, as that degree of trem I can achieve with other pieces.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 20 2005 20:41:57

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to rickm)

I agree with Jon--hammering away at this like you have is a terrible waste of time. There are a few issues here... first, how good are you? This is not a beginner piece, but fairly advanced. It is a tremolo study, but it requires a decently fluid left hand, one that is quicker and lighter than what a typical flamenco falseta requires. If you are having problems with the LH part, it has nothing to do with the piece, but with your LH in general. I think intermediate flamenco players underestimate the LH demands of the tyical classical piece (I'm not talking about Carulli or some kind 1st pos. etude either).

My LH lagged behind my RH for quite a few years, in fact as long as I played predominantly flamenco. I have learned a few decent classical pieces (Recuerdos, Capricho Arabe, Pachelbel's Canon) and over time my LH has improved a lot. Once again, hammering away at one piece will not help. I did this for 2 years with picado and it didn't work.

You might try the LH exercises in Pumpng Nylon, do them slow and with full perception. Over time your LH will feel a lot different, the fingers will gain independence and you will see that this piece is really not particularly difficult in the LH.

As far as the tremolo, when you say 120, that is way too fast for this piece, which is marked Andante I believe in my version. It is supposed to be walking speed, leisurely and romantic like a walk through the beautiful grounds of the Generalife or the Alhambra (imagien the tourists not being there), not a machine gun like vibration. Those are 32nd notes, there.

There is a way to help your tremolo which has nothing to do with the exercises of the common wisdom. That is, put all four fingers on the string--pami, and play them all at once--like one big finger. You will notice after doing this a bit the sensation involved, it is similiar to grabbing a cup or something. In daily life our fingers always work in concert, not seperately as we do in guitar. Now play one repetition of tremolo. Then play the big figner again. There is a way to play the tremolo where it feels like the big finger--but you _delay_ the other fingers. 4 strokes, one motion. Don't worry about moving your fingers fast, just move them slow--slower than the big finger. This is hard to explain but if you try it a bit you might catch what I am saying.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 20 2005 23:23:54

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to rickm)

Some thoughts on this subject:

1. Jon is right – lay off of the piece for a while – at least a few weeks.

2. Mark has a good suggestion – record your self and define the weak spots.

Now some advice from me. Do not attempt the flamenco tremolo with this piece. Why? It is much more difficult to play with the flamenco tremolo than the classical! Do not worry about the speed. Play it slowly and evenly. Do not worry about the speed – play it correctly and with feeling.

I will send you a private message and tell you who I learned some finer points from to play this piece and a few others.

I like to play a piece through at least five times – 20 if I have time. Also, take the rough spots and go back for a few bars and play through the rough area and a few more bars. Try to play the rough spot 10 times.

You have a theme that you are playing. The technique remains very similar throughout the entire piece. You have to internalize this and every piece you play. Learn to play the basic technique and let the music flow.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 21 2005 3:39:43

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to rickm)

How about recording it for us to listen? We might be able to point out something useful. I've also been playing that piece for months, horribly I must add.

But I found that recording yourself teaches you ALOT, never ever underestimate it and this applies to all music, dancing too

. In fact, I feel that recording and making yourself happy with it is the ultimate personal goal.

Good luck,
Cheston

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 21 2005 6:17:30

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
As far as the tremolo, when you say 120, that is way too fast for this piece, which is marked Andante I believe in my version.

Aha, a common but logical misunderstanding this. You are right Mike about the written tempo of RDLA, but I will bet that the OP is describing just the tremolo. One times PAMI per beat at 120bpm, get it? In other words, the thumb plays on each beat of the metronome. This is usually the easiest way for discussing trem speed.

In which case, he's actually playing it too slow, classical tremolo needs to be at about 140 minimum for it to sound fluid and to maintain the illusion of a continuous melody line. Half of 140 is 70, which is in Andante territory and which is how RDLA is scored

_____________________________

Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 21 2005 8:39:00

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to rickm)

I sometimes warm up by playing this piece. I find the following useful

1) play thumb rest stroke and free stroke for the fingers
2) free stroke thumb and light rest strokes for fingers
3) various finger combinations in addition to the normal, eg pimi, pmim, piai, paia, pma, etc etc.

This also helps with picado and arpeggios.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 21 2005 14:25:06

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Jon,
you're probably right, but I play it two thumbs to the beat....at around 90 bpm.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 21 2005 14:41:39

rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)

quote:

will send you a private message and tell you who I learned some finer points

from to play this piece and a few others

Tom if you have some other pointers pls feel free to suppy them and I appreciate all your feedback, thanks. It is really worthwhile to always practice this piece slowly? At some point one must jump up to 140 + and it will be disjointed at that stage until it comes togethor I assume thanks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2005 14:37:52

rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to rickm)

you all have given me some good ideas and some of those things I do now, but perhaps backing off it for awhile might bring more sincere results. One note, the thing at the end of playing where I run through it at least once is not meant as a study in futility as it might be construed I play it for a friend who has passed and had to sit through numerous hours of it when I first struggled with it. It is more of a memorial than anyting. In other words I always end with recuerdos in memorian so to speak thanks guys.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2005 14:40:09

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to rickm)

Gtrr66, one fact of learning is that the last repetition of anything you do holds a lot more weight in your development. so the last repetition should be correct, without tension, and without errors (probably quite slow). Usually people practice and work up to speed and then "go for it" on the last repetition, which causes them to play sloppy, and this, the most important "input" is then sloppy and bad. I would make sure that when you play the piece it's not "going for it", but you are actually inputting a constructive and correct version.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2005 15:26:34

rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to rickm)

Miguel, I appreciate the closing comments and thanks for your input , I agree, ending on a "high note" is a time worn phrase, but an apt one. Sincerly that is demonstravily the best way, again, I do have reasons to play it at the end, which are sincere, perhaps by practicing it cleaner at the end of the day is better and saving the big effor tfor an initial practice time would be better. It is a frustrating piece and Ihave heard it described as a life time piece, even though I know some play it if not easier , certainly shorter than a lifetime. I am kind of a stumblefingered old guy, but enjoy the challenge and dont plan on giving up. Excuse my frustration. If it was easy I wouldnt attempt it. This inquiry has given me ideas and confirmed some of my efforts and re enforced the idea this list is comprised of good people who are willing to share effot and idea at every level. IT was a worthwhile endeavor. thanks again to all

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2005 2:02:27

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to rickm)

I wish you the best of luck and results in this endeavor. If it is any consolation, if you listen carefully to Julian Bream's recorded version, you will hear numerous, perhaps dozens, of "punch-in's," that is, places where he made a mistake and then recorded over it. If you know something about recording you can hear them quite clearly.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2005 5:24:19

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to rickm)

quote:

perhaps by practicing it cleaner at the end of the day is better and saving the big effor tfor an initial practice time would be better.

Something I have noticed as I have gotten older might be of interest. Remember the popular term from the late 1960’s called biofeedback? Coupled with theories of body rhythms someone came up with a concept that seems interesting.

There are three different events that are concerned with this topic and occur within the individual daily. These events are in fact a sin wave – that is they have a minimum and maximum throughout the day. They occur at the same time of the day. When all three events are on a positive swing you are at your best!

I cannot remember the details but here is a bit of it. One of the three events has to do with an individuals physical state. When do you have your greatest energy level during the day? People are different.

When I am up at 4 AM and play my guitar I am sluggish and not really with it. 8 AM is better. Then from about 2 PM till 9 PM I can play my best.

It is important to get good nights rest to be at your best the next day. It amazed me that Diego del Gastor could be playing all night and “come to life” at 6 AM! I have played all night and have seen the sun come up, without evening feeling the passage of time. However, I was at less then my best!

By all means consider playing your most difficult material when you are at your daily physical peak.

Another concept sometimes suggested for learning a piece of music is to learn the ending first. That will ensure that you have saved the best for last! That is you will have practiced the ending more then the rest of the piece.

A concept sometimes used and which I like is to play the basic technique say tremolo, with chord changes used in the piece of music you are learning. Just go slow and get the feel down to where you do not think of it. What can be confusing to the hands is when there are "musical breaks” within a piece – which all music has. Those transitions are what you have to conquer. This might be going from one chord to another or any other type of break that occurs.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2005 15:14:40

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)

Good post Tom.
Yeah, I remember hearing something like that, about blood sugar levels and body cycles etc....the same theory was used to explain "jet lag" and possible methods of combatting it.

quote:

Something I have noticed as I have gotten older

Something I've noticed as I have gotten older, is that I can't stay up much after midnight anymore....maybe at New Year!

It would be a waste of money, my going to Spain...
The Peñas would just be starting when I was falling asleep.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2005 17:00:58

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to rickm)

Tom,
that's a great point about transitions. I remember ToddK talking about that, and he felt it was quite important too. It actually came as a big surprise to me when I was taking some lessons in Sevilla, and I asked the teacher if there were two different positions for picado and arpeggio. Of course, he said. So you actually have to configure your arm and hand differently. If you don't practice such a major change, it would seem silly to expect to be able to do it flawlessly.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2005 22:02:31

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

transitions

I remember one of the main points that Juan Serrano would stress was the transitions within a piece of music. He would point them out clearly and how to approach it.

You can break a piece of music down into smaller parts. Some people have a problem when they learn a piece in say four lessons. At the end of each lesson the problem is to “tie” together the rest of the music.

Awareness is the important factor when you have a transition. You learn different techniques to prepare and that is the word – PREPARE! It might be planting the correct finger at the right time, or any of a number of techniques to play smoothly through an entire piece.

What becomes more difficult is when you improvise. You have to understand those elemental transitions and be ready to apply them. That is just one more degree of difficulty.

It really helps to think, play, evaluate and write down the fingering you find that works for you. I always mark up a copy of my music using TablEdit.

Many years ago when I would learn a piece from my teacher in several segments, what I would do is to learn the Introduction and say several falsetas. Then I would learn more of the piece. To tie the piece together I would go back several bars from the end of say lesson one and play through the beginning of lesson two for a few bars, after having practiced the old lesson separate from the new lesson. Then I would practice the new lesson a few times. Next step was to get comfortable with the transition by practicing that for a few times. Finally, I would play through the two pieces and it would go smoothly.

You have to experiment and find what works best for you.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2005 22:55:01

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: off subject recuerdos (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Something I've noticed as I have gotten older, is that I can't stay up much after midnight anymore

Ron;

On a work day I have to get up at 4 AM. I get the chickens out of bed!

Holidays and weekends I sleep in till 6 AM. If I stay up past 9:30 PM my eyes begin to close. When the family gets together - like last week in Los Angeles I stay up till the wee hours and seem fine but have to stay in bed longer or I do not feel well.

I have often thought about the many flamenco guitarists from Spain that I have known and knew of, that would stay up till dawn playing guitar. It seems that many did not live past age 65. Could be the lack of sleep, too much vino tinto, a hard life or God only knows.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2005 23:01:20