What to know before accompanying dance

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shaun

Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada

What to know before accompanying dance

I've been performing solo for a couple years now. I'm considering going to one of the dance classes around here to see about accompanying. Can anybody offer any pointers about making the transition from playing solo to accompanying dance or just anything about accompanying dance in general? The first three points are obviously:
1. Compás.
2. Compás.
3. Compás.
Anything else would be helpful.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2012 19:34:44

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to shaun)

Dont do it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2012 21:09:05

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to shaun)

Buy a bulletproof vest – if you miss a cue the dancer will not only look daggers at you, they're liable to throw a few.

Ramon

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2012 1:45:02

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to shaun)

Join in as a spectator first. That allows you to experience the rhythms, the movements, parts of the choreography and (more likely) the various isolated patterns they drill. That will also enable you to study what the regular guy (or girl) is playing on top of those patterns. If you are allowed to make yourself a recording to study at home that would be great.

Next step would be to join in as a (unpaid) second. It takes some time and experience to recognize, understand and fallow all cues in movement, rhythm and speed. Make sure you don't depend on the other guitar player to understand what's going on. One day (s)he might be hindered and you have a chance to do it alone. The first time it happened to me (after being a co pilot for 1 year) going solo felt like entering a completely different world. I simply had concentrated to much on playing beautiful second voices in stead of learning/understanding were each foot tap/movement was dropped.

As a result the first solo-hours i was only allowed to clap. When i dropped a falseta or a proper compas variation they quite often claimed i was out of compas (even if they were of them self). Fortunately i recorded every lesson and started to make written transcriptions of al the (rhythmic) parts that seemed to be flawless/trustable. Soon i had all the material written down after which i found (or created) material that seemed to fit the moves/rhythms (some dance parts have fixed melodies). Later (after we had a guest singer and a recorded performance) my understanding of the choreography gained a totally different dimension which again changed the way i accompanied the lessons.

One of the characteristics of flamenco dance is that it involves parts with and without singing. In general, as long as the dancer focus on body expression (walking around and/or arm-moving on the main accents) (s)he expects/invites a singer to join in (or a lyrical falseta). When the melody has finished they are likely to speed up and/or transcend to heavier footwork. They are free to do whatever they like before rounding up to enter the next chapter (which is either another song or a escobilla).

In general the dancer dictates the speed but obviously is bounded to good taste and the (speed) limitations of the singer (not your speed limitations obviously since you are supposed to be able to function at any speed :-). In general flamenco dance has a "fixed" (chosen) tempo for the more lyrical parts (either with singing or a falseta) but in between two copla (especially during the escobilla) the dancer can gradually (or suddenly) raise speed to his/her likings. In general they warn the other participants for major changes with a cue or llamada. It depends on the next chapter if you continue playing at high speed or fall back to the agreed basic tempo. In case of an escobilla it might be the dancer who continues first. In all cases you have to adapt to both singer and dancer. You'll learn over the years.

Performing is something different than accompanying a dance class. In all cases you are supposed to give a solid base, texture and inspiration but the way you do that depends on the skills of the dancer(s). The average student needs some clear points of reference in your toque to drop there moves and some might even completely depend on your input (up to a point were only the stuff your predecessor played will do). Students (and teachers) can also speed up/slow down/skip/ad beats un-intendedly. Sometimes the teacher expects you to fallow those unintended accidents and sometimes they want you to close your ears and play on as steady as steady can be. Being unreliable in rhythm myself i quite often screwed up a chosen tempo myself at first, but in my later years i was able to hold my horses (and stop a panicking herd of elephants if necessary).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2012 17:59:27

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1892
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to shaun)

you'll need to study the typical structure for dance in different palos, learn the typical variations, llamadas, remates - recognizing remates before they happen is essential...dance accompaniment typically involves cante accompaniment as well, when the singing happens you have to accompany both so it's important that you don't overplay...
it's also important to learn and invent falsetas that suit the dance, no matter how good you are, technical and complicated falsetas are rarely useful for dance...also, depending on the dancer you accompany, some prefer that you give a solid base for them to dance on, some like it when you follow their variations on your guitar...
of course it won't hurt to sit through hundreds of dance classes and find a dancer who doesn't only do a choreography but improvises as well...there are many aspects here...especially as some dancers have a tendency to not show much respect to guitarists, you may have to put up with lots of things...learn to speak when necessary and nod often :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2012 19:39:59

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to shaun)

quote:

Can anybody offer any pointers about making the transition from playing solo to accompanying dance or just anything about accompanying dance in general?

If you have the opportunity, I strongly recommend sitting-in on a class which already has an experienced guitarist accompanying. In my limited experience, even good dance teachers --presumably on account of not being guitarists-- don't always know how to communicate their expectations in a way that makes sense to the guitarist. I'm guessing piggy-backing on an experienced accompanist is the most effective way to learn.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2012 8:57:06

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to shaun)

shaun,
I can tell you from personal experience that when I started accompaying, I basically asked a couple of dancers that I had done a few workshops with in the past if they would mind if I sat in on a dance class they were teaching. I had been playing flamenco for around 4 years at the time. They were thrilled to have actual live guitar music and someone to blame for not being in compas!!

In reality they were very supportive even though I was a greenhorn newbie and I could only stay in compas in a simple Tangos the first semester of classes. I can tell you it was a great experience and I learned so much about the actual structure of flamenco like where does the remate come in or the llamada. I got better over time and greatly expanded my repertoire and the ladies really did appreciate the opportunity to work with an actual guitarist and not recorded music.

I say just go for it and push yourself out of your comfort zone and you will be surprised what you will learn!
Sig--

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2012 22:02:23

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to shaun)

You will receive the look of death, probably more then once per class for a while. Then it gets better and better and they learn to love you. They will blame you for being out of compas even when you're positive it was them, you gotta shrug it off. They don't speak "guitareese" so they'll say some weird stuff trying to get their point across and then you'll say "Oh, you mean an arpeggio, got it." All and all though very rewarding and you must do it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2012 22:23:22

dartemo1

Posts: 76
Joined: Apr. 21 2010

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to shaun)

I know it is an old thread but I need your opinion on accompanying Sevillanas. Is it important to emphasize "structural twos" beats in the guitar playing, such as 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 ... , or just stick to a steady 3/4 rasgueado compas and let dancers/singer to accent them?
Thank you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2015 23:50:43

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

so they'll say some weird stuff trying to get their point across

Weird stuff = "Señor Lenny, no mas slayer riff por favor!"

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2015 2:29:05

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to shaun)

But raining blood fits so well with that escobilla!!! Lol

Hey dartemo, I don't completely understand your question but this is a good resource for sevillanas accompaniment.
http://ravennaflamenco.com/articles/accompaniment-sevillana
Although I prefer the galloping iai rajeo to his......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2015 3:03:42

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to dartemo1)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dartemo1

I know it is an old thread but I need your opinion on accompanying Sevillanas. Is it important to emphasize "structural twos" beats in the guitar playing, such as 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 ... , or just stick to a steady 3/4 rasgueado compas and let dancers/singer to accent them?
Thank you.

Yes, so long as you really feel the weight on the 1 even though you sometimes accent 2 with rasgueados. In general it is good to pick up the accents of the dancer.

As per the original topic...I recommend Advil or some other strong headache medication...take BEFORE class/rehearsal.
Ricardo

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www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2015 11:21:05

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to shaun)

Oxi's and ear plugs lol

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2015 15:22:36

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

They will blame you for being out of compas even when you're positive it was them,

get them to do it again with you playing and someone else doing palmas and/or counting

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2015 20:14:21

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to shaun)

quote:

I've been performing solo for a couple years now. I'm considering going to one of the dance classes around here to see about accompanying. Can anybody offer any pointers about making the transition from playing solo to accompanying dance or just anything about accompanying dance in general? The first three points are obviously: 1. Compás. 2. Compás. 3. Compás. Anything else would be helpful.

same as anything else, if you want to learn something listen to/watch someone good doing it.
watch dance performances - live shows, youtube, I haven't seen the rito y geografia de baile DVD's (anyone got a review?).
You need to get to know typical forms of falsetas, llamadas, remates, letras, escobillas etc. etc. (eg. most guitarists know the typical escobilla music for Alegrías and Soleá cos they are falsetas)
Depending on the teacher, they will often have video or audio of dances, either where they learnt from, or previous accompanists or of performances etc.

In my experience the really good dance teachers are pretty good at explaining what they want, singing the letras, sometimes singing a particular falseta they want, vocalising the rhythm/syncopation of llamadas or remates or stops or whatever.
The less good ones tend to be the ones that (for whatever reason, maybe 'cos they are insecure in their knowledge or abilities) "blame the guitarist"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2015 20:23:45

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to shaun)

quote:

get them to do it again with you playing and someone else doing palmas and/or counting

We're dealing with women here, not so simple lolol I've done that a couple times and when the error is discovered they say "That's not what you played the first time." Or something else absurd. Never a problem with good teachers, practicing with students alone can be brutal though......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2015 20:33:09

dartemo1

Posts: 76
Joined: Apr. 21 2010

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to Ricardo)

Thank you Ricardo and Lenador,

Ravenna is an interesting site. Agree regarding earplugs or Tylenol, these places have huge reverbs and after a while it gets you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2015 1:50:38

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

practicing with students alone can be brutal though......

yep, been there.... even worse though is crap teachers who think they are a lot better than they are

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2015 13:29:04

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What to know before accompanying... (in reply to shaun)

quote:

yep, been there.... even worse though is crap teachers who think they are a lot better than they are

Yup! That was one of my first accompaniment experiences and looking back it was kind of amazing how little she knew and how many students she had.......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2015 15:07:25