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I have an old dreadnought that I plan to convert over to nylon strings. Can anyone direct me to information that would help me understand what type of tuning pegs would be best for this scenario? I would prefer they fit into the existing holes, but I am not opposed to widening them if I can the right way to make that modification (edited some for clarity).
Edit: The guitar in question is a damaged and neglected Bently that I purchased some time back in the mid eighties. The most valuable aspect of this guitar is my sentiment for it. Materials are low quality in general. The frets are a mess and the truss rod is broken. The original matte finish and a lot of dripped glue was sanded from it previously. A few months ago when I tried to put strings on and bring it up to tension, the bridge split across the grains.
I have both a classical and flamenco guitar already. My intention is not to learn flamenco on this guitar or even use it for flamenco. My intention is to convert this guitar into a unique instrument per my own designs. Mostly because I believe I will enjoy the process. No innocent flamenco guitarists will be harmed during the making of this guitar. I have already had nylon strings on and the amplified sound is not disagreeable to me. The high action required because of the neck issue is better suited to nylon also. An early problem I have had is that steel string tuning pegs are not very agreeable with the three all-polymer trebles. I am looking for information on tuning pegs that I could use on this guitar that would work well with nylon strings.
I am asking my question on the lutherie section of a flamenco forum because I believe there would be no better place to get the information that I am interested in. I understand that no one may agree with what I am doing. But I would appreciate it if we could stay on topic of my question, or at least also address my question while other advice is provided if you can.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to cbecker78)
I agree with Sean. You'll be able to put nylon strings on it but that's about it. It won't play well. The two instruments are built for their corresponding string types. Find an inexpensive nylon string guitar. If you specifically want a flamenco, Yamaha used to make a very inexpensive decent one. Not sure if they still do but you can often find them on ebay used and in good shape.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to cbecker78)
Hi and thanks to both of you for the suggestions. Unfortunately, I am not really interested in finding a cheap nylon string guitar. I've got at least one of those and a few others of more questionable value. And of course, it is possible to just stick nylon strings directly onto the guitar in question without changing anything. Wrap-em around the tuning posts enough and they will eventually stay in tune. It is interesting that you both came to that conclusion based on my question though... Must be a more common thing than I would think. In case it makes anyone feel any better about my request, I have no intention of just switching the strings and pegs and hoping to end up with an instrument to learn flamenco on. I have a flamenco guitar for that. This is more about learning techniques and tools for customization, restoration, and hopefully unloading a very dear old friend that has been without good use for the last decade.
It may be best to think of me as a visionary artist... One that just needs a little help to execute his vision. Or maybe a lot of help by the time I am done.
But you can also think of me as "that crazy idiot". I'll take either.
I am still very interested in any inexpensive pegs or tuning machines that I can (1) use with nylon strings and (2) use on the flat headstock of a former steel string dreadnought.
I'd also be happy to provide addition details, back story, or even pics of the instrument in question if anyone is interested or thinks it would be useful.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to cbecker78)
I didn't come to any conlusions. I know exactly what your wanting to do and it's a bad idea. Your missing the point. The steel string guitar is built for high tension. Much higher than what you have in a nylon string guitar. The nut,saddle and fingerboard may be way too narrow for nylon strings. The end may be a crappy sounding guitar. It's going to be hard to find the tuners your looking for because they may not be made due to it begin a bad idea to even do this.
I've built both types of guitars and know their differences. Just trying to help you save money, time and a guitar.
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to cbecker78)
checker--you say you want to learn
experiment #1--take a sander, remove finish and some of the top down to 2mm, buy some viola pegs, re-drill the holes and ream them for the pegs, make new saddle and nut out of bone, put on strings and give yourself a dope slap because you wasted money and time doing this experiment
experiment #2--forget nylon strings and go for a john mclaughlin type scalloped fretboard. take several half curve files and file down the fretboard, put on light tension strings and let it rip a'l a shahkti. this might be fun and interesting.
experiment #3 forget about the above, smoke a doobie and listen to sabicas or paco.
if you have said dreadnought and want to part with it, try donating it to someone needy rather than butchering it. as it was said above, a steel string guitar is a whole different animal. someone once tried a similar experiment--i believe his name was dr. frankenstein.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to cbecker78)
Ok guys... Thanks a lot for...
not answering my question? I suspose Keith at least gave me a brand to start looking for. Maybe my non-chalant attitude gave the wrong impression. I don't know.
I don't have any idea why TANunez would be so arrogant to assert that he knows exactly what I am intending without even asking me. That is not how conversations work.
Do all of you have the information I want but have decided not to give it to me because you understand that I lack the knowledge to make careful decisions for myself? What if I were an actual physical artist and was working on a commisioned piece that fused the american history of a dreadnaught with the spanish history of a flamenco guitar. Would that make a difference? Help me understand here gentleman.
And Keith, thanks for the suggestion that I donate the guitar. That is a lovely idea, and if it looks like my current intentions are going to be too much trouble, maybe I will donate it to the trash. It currently it needs frets replaced, the neck is warped, the bridge is split - it is not playable and it would be cheaper for me to buy a new guitar and give that new guitar to someone in need than it would be to restore this one as a workable steel string. Fwiw, the "dr frankenstein" crack may be appropriate. I am an experimental scientist and work full time in a Laboratory. And I do look at this as an experiment. One that I hope I have time to follow through with.
In summary: I asked my mother, and she said it was ok if I tried to find tuning pegs. What!?! Oh yeah, that's right. Tuning pegs. That is what this thread was about.
P.S. - I'm not entirely sure I intend to come off as contrary as I may be sounding. I'll confess that I have not finished my first cup of coffee yet. but I am going to hit submit because I have some work I need to do this morning. In retrospect, I suppose any conversation is better than no conversation. So thanks for sticking with me. (and when you all see a new thread pop up entitled "best inexpensive tuning pegs for a vintage flamenco guitar"- just pretend like you never saw this one. K? Nah, now I'm just teasin')
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to TANúñez)
quote:
ORIGINAL: TANúñez
I didn't come to any conlusions. I know exactly what your wanting to do and it's a bad idea. Your missing the point. The steel string guitar is built for high tension. Much higher than what you have in a nylon string guitar. The nut,saddle and fingerboard may be way to narrow for nylon strings. The end may be s crappy sounding guitar. It's going to be hard to find the tuners your looking for because they may not be made due to it begin a bad idea to even do this. Just trying to help you save money, time and a guitar.
Hi TANúñez. You definitely came to conclusions. But we don't have to argue over that. If you really are just trying to help, I appoligize for my earlier comment. You raise a lot of valid points. Most of which I have considered previously. My reasons are fairly complex. The neck is bent straight (maybe a little back) causing string buzz. the truss rod was left tight ten years ago when the strings came off last. Adjusting the truss rod does not work. The nut that I see just spins. I do not want to try to remove the fingerboard to fix that. I sanded a taller plastic saddle and put some of those nylon strings on it that have the ball ends. For a 20 year old all laminate guitar built for nylon strings, it didn't sound too bad. Definitely muted, but ok if you are thinking of amped playing.
The neck will definitely be too narrow for flamenco or classical guitar, but you can find a number of "crossover" guitars with this size neck and nylon strings that are marketed to electric players wanting to crossover to acoustice, and to acoustic players wanting to cross over to classicical for "that smooth nylon sound" or some such.
I also have to replace the bridge because it is cracked. I'm more confident I can get the new one to stick with tensions of a nylon strings. But I am concerned it will be difficult to find a classical bridge with proper spacing for the neck. I am thinking I can find one for a 3/4 or 1/2 size classical though that might work.
So as it is, it has little value. Looking at the market locally, it might hold some as a "customized vintage dreadnought classical hybrid" or something. Or it might not.
It is also my first guitar that I purchased. A Bently. I started restoring it properly 10 years ago, until I discovered during sanding that someone had taken great efforts to carefully paint wood grains across the sound hole. But I still want to do something with it. I especially want to use it as a practice pad for a french polish to make sure I don't mess up the wodden classical that I am preparing to refinish. And if I take the time to try and make a nice finish on this guitar, I want to take the time to "try" to do something creative with it.
If it is a failure, that is ok with me. Its just me and my old guitar having one more adventure. Maybe when I'm done, It'll be great and someone else will enjoy the Frankensteinian mess that I've made of it. Or maybe it will actually go back to the trash/yard-sale pile.
Ok, I really have to go. I wanted to write this first and appologize for calling you arrogant earlier. I was being immature and unfair. I am sorry.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to cbecker78)
quote:
That is a lovely idea, and if it looks like my current intentions are going to be too much trouble, maybe I will donate it to the trash.
The most logical statement in this topic. Although before you donate what's left, for a nice artistic finish, I recommend you have someone take a video you either smashing it against a tree or concrete surface, or doing a martial arts style death blow punch or kick or flying jumping stomp through the soundboard....and put on youtube to share others who enjoy this pass time so much.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
The most logical statement in this topic. Although before you donate what's left, for a nice artistic finish, I recommend you have someone take a video you either smashing it against a tree or concrete surface, or doing a martial arts style death blow punch or kick or flying jumping stomp through the soundboard....and put on youtube to share others who enjoy this pass time so much.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to cbecker78)
You will have to forgive that TANunez guy, how was he to know you were already a couple steps ahead of the game. Guitar makers are far too set in their ways, a visionary and a scientist is probably exactly what's needed to shake things up in guitar making and this forum. The answer you are looking for is wooden pegs, you can even make your own or you can go with pegheds.com mechanicals. Keep us posted on your progress and don't forget to share pics If you pull this off I know a wealthy recording artist that may be interested in buying it. He plays crossover flamenco music and something like this may interest him greatly. Here is one of his videos, enjoy
PS: Perhaps you can get Steven Faulk to share his secret varnish recipe for this special project, we have all tried but that guy is just to secretive.
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to Sean)
ok, i have the solution. take out the tuners, put in pegs to give the guitar a real flamenco look to it, take off the saddle and nut and strings and replace them with a plastic nut and saddle and nylon strings with the balls at the end (remember there is no tie block here), get yourself a leather hat, sunglasses and start hawking the guitar like this dude
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to cbecker78)
quote:
Ok, I really have to go. I wanted to write this first and appologize for calling you arrogant earlier. I was being immature and unfair. I am sorry.
No apology necessary. You can call me whatever you want. I don't know you and you don't know me so I don't give a sh!t. If I knew you then maybe I'd have taken offense but I don't get bent all out of shape just because someone doesn't agree with me.
Perhaps I did misunderstand what you were trying to do and I didn't know all that you've already done. I thought you just wanted to swap out the steel string tuners with nylon string tuners so that you could string it and start banging away on it. If your trying to make some crossover guitar with some other modifications then have at it. I have never come across a set of tuners that fit both types of guitars. Now wooden pegs you could certainly do with some reaming of the headstock and matching the pegs.
I'm all for experimenting. That's how you learn and discover new things! good luck.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
That is a lovely idea, and if it looks like my current intentions are going to be too much trouble, maybe I will donate it to the trash.
The most logical statement in this topic. Although before you donate what's left, for a nice artistic finish, I recommend you have someone take a video you either smashing it against a tree or concrete surface, or doing a martial arts style death blow punch or kick or flying jumping stomp through the soundboard....and put on youtube to share others who enjoy this pass time so much.
Hmm... I think that unlike me, you had too much coffee this morning. Thanks for the information on tuning pegs though. This whole thing seriously leaves me amazed. It's like I asked someone what an apple is, and the lot of you told me I should never eat grapes, and that I really ought to buy some rotten pears instead. So I do see what you are saying about logic there.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to cbecker78)
CBecker, Call Chuck Herrin in South Carolina, he makes a product called Pegheds. (They make a 1:16 or 1:14 geared version that is for steel strings.) They make a 1:4 ration turning peg that is for nylon strings.
However the tuners on there now will probably work for your mad scientist experiment.
The wierd thing is when I was in high school I took a classical guitar group class at the local Jr. College after school. There was this eccentric older black guy who played blues scales really fast and he had a Dread with nylon strings on it. It drove the Ramizez 1A playing teacher absolutely crazy. He was always jamming while the teacher lectured, but he knew about 3 million chords. It was very funny to see them clash.
That class was really interesting for me at age 16 because the teacher brought the classical guitarist George Sakkalariou to play as a guest artist. It was the first time I got to see a real virtuoso guitarist up close. I had seen Segovia in Los Angeles when he was 83, but George was better. It was also a decisive moment in my life because it was the first time I heard a Eugene Clark guitar being played. Eugene Clark later was the person who taught me to build guitars.
I asked the teacher who made George's guitar, saying I thought it was by Marcelo Barbero by the headstock. Eugene makes a headstock very similar to Barbero and at that point I had been studying the designs in Irving Sloane's book Classical Guitar Construction. Later, many years later when I met Eugene in a bar in Berkeley CA he told me George was one of his customers and that at the time I saw the concert in high school he was playing Clark guitars.
I was able to hear my future teachers work about 20 years before I met him. And it took that long for me to find the right person to teach me guitar making. Previous to that I diddled around in violin shops and art schools.
So change to the nylon strings on the Dread and see what happens.
I'll share a little secret. If you go into your kitchen and find some salt, dip your finger in water and stick it in the salt. Then before you restring the guitar stick your hand into the guitar and rub the salt on the the biggest brace you can find in there. Rub hard, but don't hurt your finger.
Don't ask why, it's a secret. Have fun and please report your findings.
Cheers mate! Stephen
P.S. the point I am making is that I am superstitious that good things happen when you put nylon strings on Dreads.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
CBecker, Call Chuck Herrin in South Carolina, he makes a product called Pegheds. (They make a 1:16 or 1:14 geared version that is for steel strings.) They make a 1:4 ration turning peg that is for nylon strings. ..... .... Cheers mate! Stephen
Hi Stephen. Thank you for the suggestion on Pegheds. Any you are right that the tuners on now can work for me, though they are not very good on the trebles - slipping alot, stetching and overlapping to get enough turns. If it ends well and I can sell this or give it away, I wouldn't want someone else to be frustrated by that.
Very interesting back story. With luck, maybe the good vibes will cary this project all the way through to success. :)
At some point in a biology class, I remember doing an experiment where we took a slice of grass or maybe a fern. It was cut thin enough to see only a few layers of cells under the microscope. We added a drop of a salt solution and... I don't actually remember what happened. I suppose it would have been something involving the movement of water from inside the cells to the salt solution. I suspect I'll be rubbing salt on dried out sticks this afternoon to see what happens.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to Sean)
Hi Sean. When I first saw your reply last night, I couldn't get pegheds.com to load. Given the way this thread had been going, I decided you were just having a laugh and called it quits for the night. I tried it again after seeing Stephen mention pegheds this morning and all was well. must have been some glitch. So thanks for that suggestion! They look to be exactly what I was hoping to find, although a bit more expensive. If the bridge placement and refinish end well enough, I will definitely consider these as an option.
I'll tell you what though... if there is any chance your friend is interested in it when I am done, I will sell it to him for the cost of the tuners! :)
I remember coming across his videos once before because my wife liked the violin and dancer in his group. I hope to catch the whole special one day. Thank you for sharing, and best wishes.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to TANúñez)
quote:
ORIGINAL: TANúñez
No apology necessary. You can call me whatever you want. I don't know you and you don't know me so I don't give a sh!t. <snip> I have never come across a set of tuners that fit both types of guitars. Now wooden pegs you could certainly do with some reaming of the headstock and matching the pegs.
I'm all for experimenting. That's how you learn and discover new things! good luck.
Well I am glad there are no hard feelings in any case. Maybe if I had provided additional information from the start that would have helped my efforts more.
Searching the forum for "wooden peg" and "wood pegs" brought up a few hits that I'll look at when I get a chance. Thanks.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to cbecker78)
If you can, post pics of the progress from time to time. To me those kinds of pics are like eye candy. I enjoy seeing works in progress. They often spark ideas.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to cbecker78)
One other thing I would add to the nylon stringing of a Dread....Make it into a baritone guitar by using heavy gauge strings.
get a d' Darrio over wound string about .056 in diameter and use it as the lowest bass string. Then use a regular set of high tension strings and discard the high E string- Tune the guitar in forths from B to B instead of regular E tuning.
The lower register might sound really cool on a Dread and if you loosen up the braces, like you don't care what happens to the top, it might get pretty interesting. You could also plane about half the mass off the bridge. If you keep fooling with making the braces less strong you'll eventually reach a point where the guitar will start to sound like some thing. What I can't say, but it will make noise.
You could also sand it unmercifully between the tail block and bridge. That loosens them up.
Of course this will ruin the guitar in the conventional sense, but the baritone register might work well with the Dread body structure. Bach cello suites sound wonderful on baritone register guitars.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
How to you feel about this kind of thing:
I've never done my binding this way but I think I'm gonna try it. Do you prefer the elastic band to rope? Looks like you've just taped several small nails into the solera. I may give it a go. Where do you buy the bands?
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to estebanana)
george sakellariou
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
That class was really interesting for me at age 16 because the teacher brought the classical guitarist George Sakkalariou to play as a guest artist. It was the first time I got to see a real virtuoso guitarist up close. I had seen Segovia in Los Angeles when he was 83, but George was better.
I've seen George Sakellariou in concert a couple of times. He always played a Gilbert guitar when I saw him. Although he is a fine guitarist he is not in the realm of Maestro Segovia. To say he was better is ludicrous.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to cbecker78)
John, Segovia at 83 and Sakkalariou at 38 was no contest, George was simply better. Segovia could hardy walk when I saw him and he played easy pieces. Sakkalariou's technique at that time was incredible and was totally in the service of his musicality. Sure Segovia was important for what he did and he had a sound, but he was at the end of the 1970's and early 80's not what he was in 1935. Sakkalariou came out of his school of playing and he was/is a monster.
RE: Converting steel string peg-tune... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Step one: remove steel strings. Step two: tie on nylon strings and wind em up to pitch.
Step three: try not to vomit with the results. . .
I also have an old Dreadnought (1965 Martin D35 - BRW b&s) ) that I used to bash out Scottish,Irish and English 'folkie' stuff years (45 plus) ago. Sounds gorgeous wth light guage steel strings. but with nylon strings??? Ugh. Who knows. And the size and depth of the body may be fine for Johnny Cash, but a bit much for holding in any position that might be feasible for playing Flamenco, ( Unless you're of elephantine proportions) .
Do yourself a big favour, amigo. Want to play Flamenco? Get a quality-built Flamenco guitar. You'll be much happier, in the short, (and long) run. . .
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It may be best to think of me as a visionary artist... One that just needs a little help to execute his vision. 
This whole thing seriously leaves me amazed. It's like I asked someone what an apple is, and the lot of you told me I should never eat grapes, and that I really ought to buy some rotten pears instead. So I do see what you are saying about logic there.
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