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RE: Does understanding letra help guitarists?
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Kevin
Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
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 RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
I accept that. I should have been more specific then...I was considering Flamencologists ARE a specific or sub group of ethnomusicologists. If you feel that flamencologists are NOT ethnomusicologists with focus on flamenco, and should be absolutely separated then I guess your personal opinions on the distinction would be important to hear.
Flamencology is the study of flamenco ushered in by Anselmo Gonzales Climent in Flamencologia (1955). This type of work was mostly done by journalists, poets, and the like and until recently, was not institutionalized. Recently, the field has gained more credibility as sociologists, anthropologists, and musicologists participate in more rigorous studies.
Musicology consists of three subfields; music theory, historical musicology, and ethnomusicology. Ethnomusicology was the first branch to fuse studies of music with studies of culture and the people that make the music. Ethnomusicology is a diverse field. Some people like to focus more on the music side and some like to focus more on the social side. Others try and fuse the two. I would consider highly rigorous studies of flamenco as either "new" flamencology or ethnomusicology with a focus on flamenco. This is a very simplistic view of the field but works as a basic description.
quote:
Perfect example actually how lyrics aren't gonna help. And even being a musician able to follow tonos, you need to be familiar with structure in the sense of "how it's done"...again being familiar with the melodies and phrasing ...and the guitar's role dealing with that of course....is the only way you are gonna beable to do it well.
Agreed. That is why I posted that.
quote:
THat was about sylllables...yes very intellectual, to the point of maybe getting in the way IMO for someone learning to maintain compas and their place in the song.
Everything is tricky for beginners. Even advanced guitarists have to worry about what's coming next (but that's also part of the fun).
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I want to add that if your spanish is SO BAD that you can't tell that a line of verse is repeating (same words), then you will probably get lost at some point in the structure. Truth is that the melodies are often clear enough that even this issue is minor.
This would make a great ethnomusicological study. To try and elicit native's views on accompaniment vs foreigner's (because there are enough foreigners at a high level now). There's that quote by Pedro Pena in La Guitarra Flamenca where he talks about having to know the cante better than the singer, to know when to push (anticipate a chord???), when to wait, when to play hard, etc. By "understanding cante better than the singer" does he only mean melody?
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Also like to recall the post of norman a while back where he structured all the combos of solea via ABCD formats. I realized and pointed out in the thread that as an accompanist, there could be a small confusion as he was talking about lines of verse, and they almost but not quite correspond to MUSICAL structure. Musically, the B verse for example would be better understood as "A2" so you have A1 and A2 ....so your cambios and resolutions are always BC to be clear as far as the form is structured to the guitarist. More confusion when a singer sings his A and B verses in replacement of the CD verse. Musically the words must not change the musical form which remains Cambio/resolution (BC).
Again, I am thinking only about the tercio/verse level. To try and remember the structure of the whole cante I agree would be excessively intellectual.
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That type of thing gets the heart I feel of the poetry vs melody IMPORTANCE going on in cante, at least interms of the role of the guitarist. But even understanding poetic STRUCTURE as per Normans examples is not the point of the original poster's question which was simply understanding MEANING of the words.
As an ethnomusicologist and flamenco aficionado (to me aficionado is a positive term, it implies study) I feel that understanding the meaning cuts to the heart of the question. Ethnomusicologists see each domain of culture as potentially connected and language is embedded in culture. When the language goes (linguists, anthropologist and others have all experienced this insight through rigorous study) some of the culture goes with it. That seems discouraging but how many American troupes have you seen that make you feel the same way Farruquito or Canales do? Even where there are great artists, they almost always work with Spanish ex-patriates as their singers even if they do not know Spanish themselves.
To end on a somewhat encouraging note, culture just happens, it spreads. Nothing we can do about it except try to accept the responsibility of trying to lose as little as possible. I agree that a good ear (buttressed by experience in the conventions of accompaniment) is more important as flamenco crosses cultures than an understanding of the language. It is up to each individual how they will demonstrate their respect for the culture that originated this art. For some, playing at a very high level is enough. For others, learning the language is a must. Still others might show their respect by...
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Date Aug. 27 2012 17:14:31
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Kevin)
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quote:
This would make a great ethnomusicological study. To try and elicit native's views on accompaniment vs foreigner's (because there are enough foreigners at a high level now). There's that quote by Pedro Pena in La Guitarra Flamenca where he talks about having to know the cante better than the singer, to know when to push (anticipate a chord???), when to wait, when to play hard, etc. By "understanding cante better than the singer" does he only mean melody?
I would offer that he implies the guitarist needs to know quantity vs quality of singing (in sense of his term "better than"). That means the guitarist must know more letras than the singer or singers they accompany. Sort of like in a jazz band, the drummer needs to know tons of standards by heart, but the horn players get to read charts if they don't know em. The flamenco guitarist needs to know more than a single singer might have mastered. I personally say while it's a constant learning process, it is not imperitive a guitarst had already heard a specific letra to deal with it properly in performance. Tomatito even always watching even after thousand concerts with camaron....because it's not about truly KNOWING it by heart. You have to be on the toes, that's all there is to it. Some singers improvise and lead the guitar, others always do the same thing all the time or like the original recording they learned from and require the guitarist to know it in advance as well. To me that is not really the poing of accompanying, where it's all pre arranged. Thats' just executing an arrangement and you don't even need to look at the singer. THis happens for baile too often.
Of course Pedro sings himself, not surprising he might say that. And then there are many guitarists that sing and know tons of letras. The irony here, and this is personal, is that Pedro is not for me the ideal accompanist. That's my opinion based on his playing in that program and other things. He has good compas and follows, does the job, but I personally like what many other "non singing" guitarists do. Small example, he never plays the "cambio" it leaves you with this weird feeling every letra...even though it's deliberate.
He also talks about the mistakes a concert guitarist (solo players) might make for a singer, implying they don't follow or take care and more focus on their falsetas. Of course the question was already loaded up by the interviewer. I prefer the responses of Pepe Martinez on similar issue. He called cante accompaniment a dialogue like between a man and a women, question and answer, very elegant way to put it.
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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Date Aug. 28 2012 4:41:48
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Kevin
Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
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RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to machopicasso)
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quote:
The point of my original comment however wasn't simply about a mistake in logic. I thought you were being unfair to Ricardo by interpreting his comment uncharitably. That's not helpful for the purpose of moving the discussion forward.
Hello.
First, in that particular part of my post I was not trying to move the discussion forward without first defending ethnomusicology. I respect Ricardo very much but clearly from the above posts he conflated flamencology and ethnomusicology; ethno is an institutionalized discipline with a long history and very rigorous method and theory while flamencology, until recently has been a very subjective field.
quote:
...that last sentence above is false. I take it you study ethnomusicology, and, if so, that's great. I occasionally teach logic. Speaking in the plural does not generalize necessarily across all, or even most, objects in the class to which the speaker refers. If you disagree, then I'd recommend taking an introductory course in symbolic logic.
Nope. As used in the social sciences generalization does mean to make sweeping remarks without regard for temporal or spatial criteria, which is what Ricardo did. This also falls under the fallacy of generalization from the particular, aka hasty generalization if I am not mistaken.
I also recommend that before you give any advice on how a term is used in your own field that you look up how it might be used in other fields. That will also help in moving a conversation forward. However, since ethnomusicology borrows heavily from other fields, if you would care to elaborate I am more than willing to listen.
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Date Aug. 28 2012 15:28:04
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Chilli Fingers
Posts: 79
Joined: Sep. 21 2010
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RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to machopicasso)
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Kevin I do admire your discipline and the obvious hard study you have put into what you do. But holy crap your approach and the way you analize flamenco is so boring, and really at the end of the day its the total opposite of the roots of flamenco. I dont think that flamenco was ever created to become an academic pursuit. Thats what classical is for.
It was, from what I understand, a music for the poorer class. An outlet for theyre pain/joy/struggles, much like blues was for black americans. They didnt have money to send theyre kids to go study in an academic institution, imo institutionalising or turning flamenco into an academic pursuit totally goes against the very grain of flamenco.
BUT you can of course study flamenco with this approach as an observer, or a historian if you like. You could argue flamenco has evolved and of course it has, but is it true flamenco anymore if it becomes so far removed from its origins that you need a phd in ethomusicollogy created in a western university to understand it?
I mean take this discussion for example, its just turned into a debate on the definition of genralization and whether an ajective or a noun makes you more of a man and if you spoke in the plural does that make you cool and making sweeping remarks without regard for temporal or spatial criteria is uncool?? I dont know I guess it really doesnt matter, I really dont care im just putting my opinion out there like you are. Thats what makes the world go around right, different views and perspectives?
Ok now I know what point im trying to make. It always seems these overly analitical discussions always turn into a 'im right, your wrong' debate. Just seems pointless...
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Date Aug. 29 2012 10:58:10
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z6
Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
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RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Kevin)
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If accompaniement were brain surgery who would you want operating on you:
1. Ricardo
2. El Kiko
3. Kevin
El Kiko would tell your family he meant well, after your certain death. Kevin would explain he was more rigorous than someone else, somewhere, and might have a better chance, than someone else, of saving you, maybe. But you would likely be able to chat with Ricardo after the recovery.
Kevin, please don't take this as a blanket criticism, as I enjoy hearing from a perspective such as your own, but you keep using the word 'rigorous' and you use it a lot. You claim rigor for your pets and lack of from some others. It all sounds a bit 'Life of Brian' to me.
For example, is your field of study predictive in any way? Does the 'rigor' tend towards the first or second statements below:
1. And the little yellow men shall rule the earth and the great birds will rain fire.... (but we know who said it and when and why he did)
OR
2. Eeeeeee equals em see squared? (and no matter who said it, or where or when, it's still true?)
There is a difference. Many 'ologies' (not all) believe themselves to be 'rigorous' but seem unable to properly define the 'rigor' they claim for themselves (in a manner most of us might accept as 'rigorous'). Your posts are replete with compelling evidence that you must have misunderstood the meaning of 'rigor'. This is important. Rigor is not a word to brandish as evidence itself, it is simply one of the requirements that can lead to knowledge beyond simple personal opinion (whether those opinions are seemingly shared or not).
Ricardo isn't having his ass kissed, as Kiko believes, because he can play, it's because he's correct. And his posts are incredibly rigorous, it seems to me, while Kevin talks 'about' it in a kind of airy-farty way. (Nothing wrong with that but you don't get to own being rgorous just for claiming it.)
Here's the proof, Kevin, just in case you thought I was being rude:
You said: "Also, McGuire is a freak, the exception that proves the rule. It will be interesting to see his protege Roberto as he matures."
Indeed, the exception proves the rule is wrong. There's no rule. That's it... Finito... done... (In fact, your addition of 'Jason's protege' into the mix is an example of this counterfiet rigor; it is as misguided as it is patronizing. It is frippery; sleight-of-hand, at best.)
Until you fully understand that 'rigor' cannot be simply claimed, like a right of one's particular branch of ethno... flamenco... then the rigor you crave will not, cannot, appear. Your 'subject' is too broad and too complex. Too many subdivisions must be made, too many opinions dressed as rigor. You are limited by your toolset. There's nothing wrong with having opinions but know that that is what they are. Their 'rigor' is nothing but a delusion.
Mathematics, physics, are insanely simple compared to human creativity. Kiko wants it to be true that a literal reading of words cannot 'harm' because such a thing is easy for him to do. But such a thing could remain forever out of reach to the non-speaker as to make it impossible.
It could harm in a variety of ways to 'learn' letras or 'understand' them (whatever that might mean because Ricardo and others here have already shown how we can connect with music/art even when we are not aware of the words, or apparent meaning).
It's all 'stand by your man', no? It's nuthin but country, right?
Ricardo said 'on your toes'. That's it, right? Accompaniement is a tightrope walk, or juggling, no? It needs many skills but the 'exceptions' here (Florian, Ricardo, etc.) appear to do it very well indeed.
I'm indebted to those of you who posted (particulary Ricardo.... smoooooch). This is gold. I now know the mountains in front of me a little better. And I don't have to 'know' the words outside of the 'knowing' of which I am capable and which really matters.
Wonderful thread. Thanks to all.
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Date Aug. 29 2012 13:35:54
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Kevin)
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quote:
I should but I always liked the people here. Flo makes me laugh,
thank you buddy , i always like you too, dont feel like you HAVE to leave or aren't welcome here or part of this forum...only if you need to leave for other reasons, work, family, study or cause You dont wanna be here cause it distracts you from practice...but not because you think you are not wanted here thats a huge miscalculation..and assumption...in fact its the opposite
sure theres difference of opinions at times...but thats all it is, little unimportant things in the big scheme of things, you have known us for many many years..especially now with Ron's passing ...reminds one, friends and people you have know for a while and taken for granted are important...even tho we are just a forum on the internet, its nice to have that...even tho you cant see them the people and friends are real
even tho its just a forum it has the power to support, help, encourage someone ..make someones day just a little nicer or make him forget his problems for an hour or 2...or receive all of that back if you need it
we tend to underplay it and admit the value of it cause its silly...its just a forum on the net and admitting otherwise it silly...but really its a lot more and gives so much more...just the fact that I ..in my silliness have the power to put a smile on your face for a second or 2 from Australia says it all...dont feel embarrassed to admit to yourself that it does more than we at times give it credit for...simply cause its not "real" world ...just a forum
the fact that 30 different people from 30 different countries are going to take time out and dress up and each record a message or some music and work together to make a video montage for someone they meet just here on a internet forum to give him a special and real send off should tell anyone about the forum value...its nice, to be part of it and have this kind of people in your life...wherever they might happen to be, next door or in your computer screen...
hope you think honestly about it and reconsider...but do what is best for you, either way i understand
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Date Aug. 30 2012 6:14:31
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z6
Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
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RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Kevin)
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Hi Kevin,
Yes, you missed my first name on another post. But z6 is fine with me. There's no 'hiding' going on here. I'm not trying to harm you.
Chilli: Indeed, and this is the point, Ricardo already did brain surgery on me. It was a resounding success (involuntary expletives notwithstanding).
Brain surgery with a knife (and even the most modern saw) is a brutal, process. I could have asked a few brain surgeons if they could transform my playing, but I'm frightened of the knife, and losing pounds o' porridge.
Instead, I took some advice. This advice is surely changing my neural patterns, and one day we might have the kind of resolution that can confirm these neural activities take place in learning. (I mean, actually map them as more than charge or connection or whatever; something with a clearer correlation to the underlying activity.) Spooky, no?
But make no mistake. It IS brain surgery. (But more as a Spock mind-meld than a guy with a knife and a yen to start cutting.)
Kiko, I thought you made a powerful case and your video almost won me over. I'm sure if we were drunk somewhere I'd agree heartily. That lady cracked me up, and the insertion into the post was magically funny. Thanks.
But accompaniement looks hard enough without getting all Lionel Ritchie about it.
Kevin. Please don't sound so beaten. It's all a laugh, no? You're saying you don't 'like' me? And that this has nothing to do with it but you're withdrawing your services from the forum and everyone can blame z6? (Isn't that a letra?) Is that what you got from my posts? How about Ricardo's case? Didn't that get you thinking? Isn't that what ologies concerning the 'art of the illiterate' should do if they're to have any value at all? You don't just shout that something matters because you knew someone once who probably might have thought this or that. And that person has a big dick so we should consider it as evidence of something (outside of the dick itself... cause that's still sitting safely in the pants of the guy who said it in the first place)?
Flamenco guitar accompaniement is one of the most complex activities I believe humans are capable of. (With or without the optional stuff.)
Kevin: But knowing that it IS optional IS knowledge. Things don't necessarily have to exist in a perpetual 'undecided' state. There is a kind of 'fundamental' truth or rule here but you're not seeing it. And you seem angry about it.
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Date Aug. 30 2012 11:24:38
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