Independence/strength of RH ring finger

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jeff_hatcher

Posts: 46
Joined: Aug. 26 2012

Independence/strength of RH ring finger

Greetings to everybody. I'm new to the forum, new to Flamenco. Trying to get my bearings and soak up some information for the time being.

I've been working to try to get clean, separated rasgueado's. The I and M fingers are relatively easy to control, but the A finger feels weak. I don't seem to have as much power and range of motion with finger as the I and M. I can feel tension between the A and the M when I try to extend the A. This causes me to drag the M along when I extend the A finger, and maked the 3 and four finger ragueados sound sloppy and indistinct.

Does anybody have any particular advice on how to free my A finger from my M finger? Extend the range of motion and increase strength of the A finger?

Trapping the I and M when releasing the a gives me separation, but the limited range of motion makes the stroke with the A finger sound weaker by comparison.

Thank you in advance

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2012 16:50:10

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Independence/strength of RH ring... (in reply to jeff_hatcher)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeff_hatcher

Greetings to everybody. I'm new to the forum, new to Flamenco. Trying to get my bearings and soak up some information for the time being.

I've been working to try to get clean, separated rasgueado's. The I and M fingers are relatively easy to control, but the A finger feels weak. I don't seem to have as much power and range of motion with finger as the I and M. I can feel between the A and the M when I try to extend the A. This causes me to drag the M along when I extend the A finger, and maked the 3 and four finger ragueados sound sloppy and indistinct.

Does anybody have any particular advice on how to free my A finger from my M finger? Extend the range of motion and increase strength of the A finger?

Trapping the I and M when releasing the a gives me separation, but the limited range of motion makes the stroke with the A finger sound weaker by comparison.

Thank you in advance

Tuck it slightly behind the M finger and shoot it off of the side so to speak.

Later on you can try this standard "gallop" pattern that drives many basic compas patterns in flamenco : i up, a down, i down.....i up a down i down.....i a i....iai.....iai....etc....that starts to develop the "strength" because the a finger must free float in the air waiting its turn to make that middle sound of the gallop. Don't worry about hitting all the strings with the finger, it's ok to only hit a few. IN the end you feel the momentum drive the stroke, not muscular strength.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2012 17:00:21

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Independence/strength of RH ring... (in reply to jeff_hatcher)

I know your pain.. you try to do some basic rasgueados and the i and m arent that awesome, but the a finger is totally worthless, you just want to cut it off

Everyone has different hands but to me what worked well was doing simple ami rasgueados over and over with the 3 fingers behing the thumb. At first I concentrated only on getting the rhythm, firing the fingers evenly. Overtime the a finger will start to wake up.

For the first few weeks your fingers will be doing uncessary motion and you'll be applying unecessary strenght so pain is to be expected, just dont force it. Practice some picado and arpeggios inbetween.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2012 17:45:44

jeff_hatcher

Posts: 46
Joined: Aug. 26 2012

RE: Independence/strength of RH ring... (in reply to jeff_hatcher)

Ah.. thanks for your replies, Ricardo and Rui. Sounds like good advice.. I was just getting frustrated because it doesn't seem to be loosening up.

Ricardo... visited your site. Nice stuff. I'll definately look into ordering your CD after I've recovered from my last instrument purchase.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2012 19:00:54

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Independence/strength of RH ring... (in reply to jeff_hatcher)

The frustration is to be expected, especially if you played guitar with a pick.. suddenly you feel like you cant play a thing

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2012 20:01:58

Yojimbo

Posts: 176
Joined: Feb. 7 2011
From: Toronto, Canada

RE: Independence/strength of RH ring... (in reply to jeff_hatcher)

It takes time to develop the muscles needed - a lot of time.

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The universe is indeed expanding - to get away from this planet.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2012 21:24:49

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Independence/strength of RH ring... (in reply to jeff_hatcher)

The problem is that M and A both share the same tendon, making it harder for A to achieve independence. The same would be true for M for the same reason, but M is a much stronger finger by nature than A.

I would recommend the same thing I tell my students. Practice very slowly. I mean snail slow. One – stroke – at – a – time. This allows you to better control the movements while you develop muscle memory.

Ramon

_____________________________

Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2012 22:12:08

clevblue

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 29 2012

RE: Independence/strength of RH ring... (in reply to jeff_hatcher)

Hello Jeff, I'm new to Flamenco too. I've always played finger style and it's still a slow process getting the power behind the fingers a and e are my weakest, although after a month or so now they are starting to get in line. I found some LH stretching exercises which I now do with my right hand too and it's been quite a help. It doesn't take long once you get used to it

people underestimate the value of massage too

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2012 22:26:32

jeff_hatcher

Posts: 46
Joined: Aug. 26 2012

RE: Independence/strength of RH ring... (in reply to jeff_hatcher)

Thanks again everybody. Clevblue: that video link looks useful. Thank you for sharing that. Prominentcritic: Sounds like good advice... more or less what the "Serrano" book and Mario DaSilva from Jamplay recommend. Again, just slow and frustrating. The limited range of motion of the "A" finger is especially annoying.

Rui: I have been playing fingerstyle (classical) since the beginning of the year, but the right hand on Flamenco is Sooooo different... but that is what attracted me to it. Such incredibly complex and exciting rhythms! I want to have the best of both styles available to me. For instance, take a look at Scott Tennant tackling a Miroslav Tadic piece at about 7:31 of this clip It's not flamenco, but employs a similar right-hand rhythmic drive and flexibility not found in classical music. *** cue to about 9:30 for the best example). Martha Masters has a better version, but it's copyrighted material (Mel Bay DVD).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2012 0:57:08

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Independence/strength of RH ring... (in reply to jeff_hatcher)

From what I understand it's leaps and bounds easier to learn flamenco, then learn classical that it is to learn classical and then try to learn flamenco. My teacher started as a classical player and seems to think I pick up classical "ditties" much faster then he picked up flamenco when he started. I'm no classical expert but from the little I've learned so far it's just been a slight modification to techniques I'm already familiar with. Where as going from classical to flamenco there's all new techniques and theory behind it you have to learn. Just play flamenco! Learn classical later

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2012 2:25:09

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Independence/strength of RH ring... (in reply to jeff_hatcher)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeff_hatcher

Thanks again everybody. Clevblue: that video link looks useful. Thank you for sharing that. Prominentcritic: Sounds like good advice... more or less what the "Serrano" book and Mario DaSilva from Jamplay recommend. Again, just slow and frustrating. The limited range of motion of the "A" finger is especially annoying.

Rui: I have been playing fingerstyle (classical) since the beginning of the year, but the right hand on Flamenco is Sooooo different... but that is what attracted me to it. Such incredibly complex and exciting rhythms! I want to have the best of both styles available to me. For instance, take a look at Scott Tennant tackling a Miroslav Tadic piece at about 7:31 of this clip It's not flamenco, but employs a similar right-hand rhythmic drive and flexibility not found in classical music. *** cue to about 9:30 for the best example). Martha Masters has a better version, but it's copyrighted material (Mel Bay DVD).

The scott tennant piece I feel is not really like flamenco. He has the bass note pounding out and ringing loud over the tinkling weak melody. And rhythmically, well.... The technique of flamenco will have a more controlled and clear melody with bass notes not so pronounced. All from simply right hand technique. IMO. I don't have an exact comparision with this piece, but for example, you could imagine a classical guitarist attempt the following piece, and I am sorry to say they are NOT going to be able to produce the same sound Gerardo gets with typical right hand classical attack and concept:

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2012 15:43:23

jeff_hatcher

Posts: 46
Joined: Aug. 26 2012

RE: Independence/strength of RH ring... (in reply to Ricardo)

Hey Ricardo...

Honestly, the Tennant version of this piece would not have been my first choice. The version I had in mind is off of a DVD by Martha Masters (Mel Bay Pub) where she is playing about the same part as Tennant at 9:31, but with a lot more strumming with single-note playing mixed in. Definately not a "Classical" technique, but not really Flamenco. Just the same kind of Rhythmic power and freedom that got me interested in Flamenco.

That said, please bear with me. My understanding of your music is still muddled, but I want to learn. I'm working through the 5-CD set "El mejor Album Flamenco de la Historia", and browsing youtube vids, and referencing Juan Serrano's "Basic Techniques" set. Little by little I'll get a better feel.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2012 16:02:29

Don Dionisio

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: Independence/strength of RH ring... (in reply to jeff_hatcher)

Ricardo,
Wow, that is a great example of the highest level flamenco playing...Not only can he
play all the right hand techniques at maximum tempo but he creates an unbelievable
swing that high level players of other styles would not capture.

The extension of the right hand fingers for the rasgueos is not a movement that
is typically done (at least on a regular basis) in classical guitar playing. Nor is the ease
with which the flamencos move from arpeggio to picado. You have to expect, as someone stated earlier,
that it will take time. I would practice rasgueos with and without the guitar, making sure that
you avoid injury. Your wrist and arm should look like Gerardo's position. Keep the wrist straight.
And, stop when you feel any discomfort.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2012 16:20:00

jeff_hatcher

Posts: 46
Joined: Aug. 26 2012

RE: Independence/strength of RH ring... (in reply to Don Dionisio)

quote:

Wow, that is a great example of the highest level flamenco playing...

Agreed....

Thanks for the advice Don. I do sit around and practice "flick" my fingers throughout the day. What I really need is to find a local teacher.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2012 16:31:30

cbecker78

Posts: 26
Joined: May 18 2012
From: Texas

RE: Independence/strength of RH ring... (in reply to jeff_hatcher)

One other thing to check could be the angle between your forearm and top of your hand. If you are playing rasg. with an upward bend at your wrist, you are already stretching those tendons tight before you make the attack on the strings.

Coming from palm-muted fingerstyle, I found an upward bend kept coming back natural to me, and was hard to avoid. But "a" seems easier to extend for me with a level or slight down bend.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2012 17:31:41