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What do you want cantaor/a to know?
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Lonnie
Posts: 27
Joined: Aug. 19 2012
From: Easthampton, MA USA
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 What do you want cantaor/a to know?
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While I'm thoroughly enjoying the long and detailed discussion about how important knowing letra is to guitarists, I'm hoping this question elicits, at least at first, some simple, straightforward responses. The question(s):
In order to produce the best music together...
1. What are the three most important things you want your cantaor/a to know?
2. What are the three most important things you want to know from your cantaor/a?
These "things" could be about guitar-playing, about singing, about flamenco, about music in general, about audiences... you name it! Another way to think about it might be:
--> What are the three most important "pain points" between you and your cantaor/a, and what might minimize or eliminate that pain?
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Date Aug. 28 2012 16:56:19
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: What do you want cantaor/a to know? (in reply to Lonnie)
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quote:
3. FEELING.... have to agree big time on that one with Ricardo , as to his No. 1 and 2 I think should be basically already incorporated if you are a singer ...
quote:
5. Accent... not so sure about that , you sing like you have to sing , there are bad singers in Andalucia as everywhere ...I think if you are singing in Spanish then consistency is more important ,.. whatever Accent you have , unless the song depends upon it , then keep that accent constant if not then it just sounds horrible ,,, consider someone singing in English with a few American phrases then a bit of Aussie , next part sounds like it from London or somewhere , all in English but sound wrong ....Accent , for a foreigner is not as important as consistency of accent.
After all you are not trying to fool people that you are Andalu' just that it sounds good in Castellano ...
One thing that hasn't been mentioned, that would I look for, is body language , its useful to be able to see someone , more or less as you get a lot of info from signals , conscious and unconscious , hand movements and eye contact from time to time especially if you are going to change something or go for it , the signal is really only 1/4 of a second but if you see it you know and are ready to keep with it .....
Having said all this it is more of an opinion for you as you asked the question as I have no singer ... ( I wish ) and if I did would need a lot of practice to get it together for him/her even at a low level ....but still signals are signals .....
Oh , Yes, Lastly dont sing KEN LEE ...
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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Aug. 28 2012 20:12:33
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Kevin
Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
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RE: What do you want cantaor/a to know? (in reply to Lonnie)
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quote:
not so sure about that , you sing like you have to sing , there are bad singers in Andalucia as everywhere ...I think if you are singing in Spanish then consistency is more important ,.. whatever Accent you have , unless the song depends upon it , then keep that accent constant if not then it just sounds horrible ,,, consider someone singing in English with a few American phrases then a bit of Aussie , next part sounds like it from London or somewhere , all in English but sound wrong ....Accent , for a foreigner is not as important as consistency of accent.
After all you are not trying to fool people that you are Andalu' just that it sounds good in Castellano ...
Not picking on you Kiko, you aren't the first to mention this.
Why is it not ok to sound bad as a guitarist; to not have good compas, to not try to sound like a flamenco by filing your nails and practicing to get that flamenco sound? Why do people spanishize their names when they are white? Why do people always wear black? These are all things that we imitate to approximate the culture as best we can and hopefully achieve some sort of authenticity.
Yet, when we talk about accent and vocal timbre (which is at least in part controlled by TECHNIQUE and not nature) it suddenly becomes ok to settle. If we settle on that why not sing in English. Let's play on steel strings. Hell, let's dress like bluesmen, at least we are in proximity (at least here in the states) to that culture.
Are you trying to fool people that don't know or fool the people of the culture in which flamenco originates. The latter is a more lofty and worthy goal.
Mayte Martin does not have a raspy voice but she does utilize many techniques that make her sound flamenco. Compare her boleros with her flamenco. She does something slightly different in her flamenco recordings that is not as audible in other genres.
Anecdotally, I quite enjoyed a japanese flamenco cd until some gitanos pointed out that alegria was rendered aregulia. The cante was otherwise great but they can hear something that we can't. We should aspire to that (knowing that it is a process)...otherwise why even bother?
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Date Aug. 28 2012 21:27:11
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: What do you want cantaor/a to know? (in reply to Kevin)
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quote:
Not picking on you Kiko,
Thats OK,, your not the first and wont be the last ... pick away .
I dont think it to do with anyone fooling anyone , YOu can see online Japanese people dancing Sevillanas for example , playing and singing ...I dont think that fooling is a part of it at all .....
its just trying to do your best .... some things are easier to do ....
have stage clothing ..... easy
Have a stage name ...easy
Sing in an Andalu ' accent not so easy , if you can do it ...fine .. if not you will automatically come to the world of compromise .....So you may have
!, sing in a very bad Andalu accent
2. sing in a consistant spanish but not andaluce voice
3. dont sing at all , forget the whole thing
They are but some of your choices
. quote:
""Why is it not ok to sound bad as a guitarist; to not have good compas," " is the same in any music ...why is it not OK to sound bad as a musician ...'cos it sounds bad ...........
Compas and sound and all that badly done ...I have all that , and maybe i get better bit by bit ... but thats why Im here to an extent ,... along with a whole bunch of people who like Flamenco music and are trying to better themselves at doing it ...
I also assume that this thread started by Lonnie is an attempt to get some ideas to help her and her friends to better themselves if possible ...I dont see any problem with that .....
Which does bring us back to the question
What do you want cantaor/a to know? to keep us on topic ,... it should be fairly straight foward info we can produce for her as requested........
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Aug. 28 2012 22:34:27
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Lonnie
Posts: 27
Joined: Aug. 19 2012
From: Easthampton, MA USA
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 RE: What do you want cantaor/a to know? (in reply to El Kiko)
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Kevin, Ricardo, El Kiko, thank you so much for your responses! As a beginner flamenco singer, you have given me a wonderful set of guides - great things to aim for, to look for, to work on and to study. Alas, if I only had a live teacher!
I do listen very, very carefully (professionally I teach Spanish and English pronunciation to non-native speakers) and I've had more than one Spaniard ask me what part of Spain I was from. I really enjoy learning the pronunciation pattern from listening - a lot. But I do recognize how very far I have to go on this wonderful journey.
There is no way I'm going to have the true voz afilá - no genes for it, don't smoke, don't drink nearly enough. But feeling, the type that comes from the gut, yes, that's coming along. And no, thankfully I do not have an operatic voice. We tried that with a singer from Peru when we first formed and it was a total disaster. That's when I took over.
All that give and take... we're beginning to do it, not just follow exactly what we learned by listening. It's fun, and thank God I have a great guitarist who makes me look (sound) good. He keeps assuring me that my "errors" are poetic license. 
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Date Aug. 29 2012 14:17:40
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: What do you want cantaor/a to know? (in reply to Lonnie)
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quote:
What are the three most important "pain points" between you and your cantaor/a, and what might minimize or eliminate that pain?
Hi Lonnie, it really is a pleasure having you here, such fresh direction and perspective
i am sure if i try i can think of 3 things but right now i can only think of one...most important thing i think...dont relie on memory, its easy to forget an exact tone you listened to 9 years ago...constantly check yourself and your tones and notes against whatever cd you got it from or with the chords and adjust if you need too..
There was a singer i worked with, she was great we got along great, i loved her... sang some things brilliantly... some things ...she kind of forgot the tones and hadn't revisited in a long time to remind herself of them...i am not confrontational, i never had the guts to tell her because i didn't know of how someone might take that, i didn't wanna come off like i was criticizing...but it was frustrating having to find new chords every-time... the chords that were the right chords once upon a time cause i transcribed from the cds provided by her..and didn't work anymore because we were doing a number from memory to something last time she heard was 9 years ago....i guess she assumed that because shes been doing it so long its no problem...but a guitarist visits the basics very often, checking himself, reinforcing rithm etc... ..i would think its a good exercise for anyone...
i would have loved for her to as an exercise sit and check against audio or chords and adjust and remind her self of where she drifted off a little..such little things could make all the difference...it was frustrating in particular cause i knew how good she was and and could be ...she was a good singer...had all the tools and capabilities just wasent disciplined enough in her approach...many would have killed for her natural abilities but there comes a point where you cant just relie on that alone, you have to be disciplined and tactical in your approach
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Date Aug. 29 2012 14:50:13
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orsonw
Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London
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RE: What do you want cantaor/a to know? (in reply to Lonnie)
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(My aficionado opinion)
Take risks- that means honesty and vulnerability.
Don't pretend to be someone you're not but I don't think that means you have to be Andalusian.
I play with Andalusian singers who often can't understand every word that's being sung by other singers because this is music not speaking and so words, accent etc.. are all subservient to musical/emotional expression.
If a singer is to have expression they need the tools to do it that means details of tone, melody, this is flamenco so they need RHYTHM- how you phrase, how you move around the beats- late/on/ahead, pulling/pushing, tension/resolution, all that stuff; good compas is the beginning of this.
Good singing transmits more than music but it is a musical event so- be musical, be vulnerable, be yourself, enjoy singing, enjoy learning!
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Date Aug. 29 2012 15:08:24
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Lonnie
Posts: 27
Joined: Aug. 19 2012
From: Easthampton, MA USA
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RE: What do you want cantaor/a to know? (in reply to koenie17)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: koenie17
1. Sing in tune and "a compas" I love it when a singer knows how and when to help me out with some palmas.
2. Now how to create an atmosfere and make the tercios more interesting for example: thirst tercio mas templaito(more soft kinda spoken) and for the parte mas valiente, has to be really valiente no holding back.
3. Be clear about things, like I do my best to acompany the cantaor/a the best I can. So for me it´s nice if the singer tries to interact with me as well. I don´t like it if i have to chase the singer all the time.
4. I don´t like the nosey/high in the throat sound all the time, especially for a female voice.
5. I just like to play and listen to cante. I´m not a profesional!! So when I´m enjoying myself I play better. So please don´t get crazy when I make a mistake.
For me the best guitarist/singers are the one that know how to get away nicely with a mistake
Koenie17, this is lovely - direct, simple, easy to follow, clear. So it's a good checklist for me (whereas some other posts are classes at the 400 level).
1. Check. Singing in tune is incredibly important to me but sometimes I catch myself "off" a hair. It has to be a goal. Compas I love love love, getting pretty good at it. This gives guitarist Dave more freedom to be creative. I cannot do palmas all the time but definitely will do it to communicate with Dave and to bring my thread into the fabric of the whole group.
2. I really enjoy this aspect, too, in part because the song has to move from somewhere to somewhere else, in part because I do understand the letra and react and emote correspondingly. The more valiente (in appropriate places) the more our audience (and we) get out of it. Having fun learning to let it loose!
3. Our troupe is actually made up of two happily married couples plus a varying assortment of dancers. So much of what I do is in fact a love song to my wonderful husband. It's communication, it's fun, it's creating something together, it's a bit of bragging: "See? We know how to make beautiful music together!" So this part is easy. How difficult it must be when troupe members don't like each other!
4. I don't think I do that sound. People comment about my low, throaty sound. Eh. That means I need to expand into higher areas while keeping it flamenco. Hm!
5. We call this stage presence; professionalism. We all acknowledge that we make mistakes all the time. The point is to not let the audience know that you did that. We pull stuff over on people all the time, even people from Spain. If you've goofed but have good compas and a bit of creativity, you can pull little flamenco rabbits out of your hat while the rest of the troupe does what it's supposed to do. Dave makes me look good All The Time. The least I can do is to just keep singing when he burps.
Re: mistakes... watching a video of oneself is very instructive. Cringe-making at times, but useful. Someone commented that they liked my singing in "Isla Mujeres" (thank you very much!). That particular video is cringe-making for me because, for the first and only time, I started with the second instead of the first verse! That is, he gets her in bed right from the start. No anxious longing, no competition with the other guys. I don't even know how I fixed it. But anyone who understands Spanish would have had a hard time following the story. It's the best video we have of my worst version.  Upon watching it, I saw that I telegraphed my concern about having messed up. Ooo, bad! But Dave, bless him, just kept on going. Maybe that was because he never listens to the words.
I'd love to spend the rest of the day replying to lots of these posts but, alas, must go teach Spanish. Flamenco just don't pay. 
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Date Aug. 29 2012 17:48:04
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: What do you want cantaor/a to know? (in reply to Lonnie)
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quote:
4. I don't think I do that sound. People comment about my low, throaty sound. Eh. That means I need to expand into higher areas while keeping it flamenco. Hm!
I forgot something super important. A lot of people get into singing flamenco because they feel they need to fill the role in a dance show or whatever, usually dancers or guitarists or percussionists, and feel because they can sing a long to recordings that they will do a decent job filling that role. What happens, especially with dancers, is right off the bat they don't have clue about the apropriate range they should be singing. Especially females. They end up 'singing" in the talking voice range some what. There is no way you can properly emote if the high notes are not actually HIGH for you. So it is important to experiment and don't just do what ever the guitarist wants to do. Try a significantly higher key and see how it goes. Most non singers don't like that feeling because they sing from the throat only and don't learn how to push air from the diaphram, so High notes are 'un comfortable" so it's always like "ok put it lower". REality is females should NOT be singing in keys that males normally sing in. They should sing higher in general. IT should not always be "comfortable" when singing, at least in performance.
Now for studying melodic details, of course it is fine to sing in a key MUCH lower than what you need to perform. And of course a good day or bad day should be a matter of a fret or two difference. Anyway I checked out the vids on your website but did not hear flamenco cante. THe solea and tientos were done instrumental. El Vito was a sort of buleria, but I dont' consider that melody cante really so don't have much to critic about it. I will point out that it does show to me that you should be singing in a much higher key.
THis is my opinion. I have been asked to "coach" quite a few singers that have discovered flamenco singing as something they want to try more for than for just aficion...often times it starts turning into the green "singer" trying to train me to accompany them in prep for performances they have already booked!!!! My advices turn into either hurting their feelings or me singing for them what I think emotive singing should be, and even though I am not a pro singer, they often get discouraged about the intensity levels an precision I am looking for with flamenco. And of course there is taste....some people prefer ARcangel to someone like Paquera. Soft and sweet vs loud and powerful. Others put on a fake flamenco rajo and can only do in in a comfortable range and insist the guitar must comply. I think it all sets up for getting laughed at by aficionados which I think is no good. And In worse cases some spanish flamencos are out right insulted by false imitators of cante. When asked to coach on singing I pretty much don't sugar coat any of my opinions but do offer that there is wide range of vocal styles in flamenco since before camaron.
Of course the scores of self proclaimed "camaroneros" is an other issue regarding singing students that gets at taste issues. When I am hired to accompany I do my job and don't judge, but when asked what I think about a singer's style I am no politician.
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Aug. 29 2012 19:27:43
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Lonnie
Posts: 27
Joined: Aug. 19 2012
From: Easthampton, MA USA
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RE: What do you want cantaor/a to know? (in reply to mezzo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mezzo
quote:
Anyway I checked out the vids on your website but did not hear flamenco cante. THe solea and tientos were done instrumental.
yes, i spotted it too, but did not dare to mention it...
You are correct. We don't have the money to hire a videographer, so we take what we can get - nice people who share what they filmed. So we don't have any video of the tangos or alegrias that we do and I sing.
It's been interesting introducing flamenco to an audience that, for the most part, has never heard it before. This is not the most sophisticated part of the country, so in a sense we're easing them into it as we ease into it. We've worked as a group for only a little over two years, and that only part-part time because, well, we cannot in any way earn a living at this.
So we've had a fair amount of rumba because that's what our audience can comprehend. Tangos, too, of course. We've worked in some other toques bit by bit, always starting with dance because, again, that's what they can stomach. There's no way I'll ever be able to get away with a martinete, even if I could ever sing it. They'd walk out, or at best wait politely while talking or texting.
I had the wonderful-scary experience of having to learn alegrias in a week. Sergio Aranda was in town (don't ask - convoluted story. Let's just say he took a wrong turn on the way to New York) and we put on a show in a theater. Trying to make it look like we weren't fifty levels below his ability was a huge challenge, but, according to the concertmaster of the Syracuse Symphony Orchestra, we pulled it off. In any case, I'd never sung alegrias before and this was what he wanted to do. He was so kind and patient, and so talented... guitar, singing, dance, cajon... he could do it all. It was an other-worldly experience for people who simply never get to work with anyone who really knows this stuff.
This month I'm finally tackling a bulerias. Dave's been playing them for many years, but this is new to me. Like learning one language after another, each toque is a bit easier than the one before it.
So after bulerias, what should I take on?
As soon as we have some decent video of actual flamenco (again: to the best of our ability), I'll post it.
See you in a few days. We're off to visit a conguero who used to be our percussionist. The bum... moved back to New York.
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Date Aug. 30 2012 13:13:29
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