Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, please advice

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tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, plea...

Issues solved with a visit to the local luthier.

I appreciate everybody's help here. Thanks alot!

Now... FLAMENCO!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2012 12:33:26

Jim Kirby

Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to tele)

See posts on delcamp as well.

This is not a 1980's Raya Pardo. It has a number of features indicating that it's not a conventional modern Spanish guitar - fretboard doesn't reach soundhole, rosewood (?) fretboard, cutaway, uncharacteristic binding scheme, uncharacteristic rosette.
Posts on delcamp suggested a 1930's or earlier German factory model.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2012 23:46:49

Jim Kirby

Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to tele)

Here's a 1982 blanca - see how far the guitar you are picturing is from the general aesthetic.

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Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2012 23:52:12

estebanana

Posts: 9369
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to tele)

I'm almost certain this is photo of a Portuguese guitar for playing Fado. And I suspect the poster is a trickster.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2012 2:06:54

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to estebanana)

People people, it's a stupid picture just to show the location of the crack that I picked up from the web! Sorry for not mentioning that! Now that we got over that please advice if you really can.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2012 9:45:00

Jim Kirby

Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to tele)

" ... if you really can" Hmmm... gets worse and worse.

Cleats under the soundboard splits. But if there is a cross brace there, you should check that it isn't popped loose.

What action do you like? 4mm straight along the frets + 2 times (whatever action you like at 12th fret) = string height above soundboard at saddle. 4 + 2 (3?) = 10. 4 + 2 (2.5) = 9 You may be a little high but not bad. How high is the bridge? (Formula above would indicate its 10mm for a 3mm action - high for a flamenco. Are you sure it isn't a classical setup?)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2012 11:41:15

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to Jim Kirby)

It was definately set up like a classical guitar(but it's not one), the action was horribly high(4mm 12th fret), there was some space to shave down the saddle bone but only about 1,5mm.
Action I would prefer would be 2,3mm-2,7mm at low E 12th fret. Currently it has no possibility to reach that action due to bellying behind the bridge and even possibly a loose brace under the top fretboard. Which are obviously the things that require checking first at this time.
Is it otherwise normal for a flamenco guitar to have 4mm gap between a straightedge on the fretboard and the top at the bridge?

I said "if you really can" without any intent to be rude, so please...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2012 10:15:32

Jim Kirby

Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to tele)

I guess I didn't actually ask the question I meant to - how tall is the bridge? (My bad. That was what I was meaning to ask when I asked about classical setup - was the guitar built as a classical guitar.? How do you know it's a negro and not a classical?)

4mm + 5mm to get 2.5mm action at 12th fret gives you a 9mm string height at the saddle. That's maybe a little high but not bad, but it sounds like the saddle is higher than that since you can't get below 3mm action. Again my wondering if its a classical bridge.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2012 11:52:37

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to Jim Kirby)

I believe it's a flamenco negra due to the low height of the bridge(sorry I don't have specific height but I would guess it's around 7mm currently witout the bone saddle, certainly looks lower than a classical bridge) and flamenco plastic "tap plate" on the top.
I believe it's possible that the reason why it's not possible to go currently lower than 3mm has something to do with the bellying behind the bridge or the cracks near the fretboard. Which would mean a loose brace and too much movement even possibly on the neck angle. What would be the best method to see if the two issues are the causes of the high action?

thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2012 11:59:53

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to tele)

tele, you mention you have some experience with instrument repairs but your questions suggest your experience seems limited and not in the area of actually repairing cracks, addressing neck angles, etc. that said, you are probably looking at some big dollars leaving your wallet and going into a luthier's wallet if you want this guitar to be playable and long lived. unless you really love this guitar and its' sound you might want to take a step back and ask yourself if you are willing to part with some money.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2012 14:28:20

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to keith)

Keith: Yes I have only experience with electric guitars but what I mean in general I can do simple repairs such as filling cracks and installing cleats.

But I really wonder, is it normal for a flamenco guitar to have the straightedge laid over the frets to land 4mm above the top at the bridge?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2012 15:47:22

Morante

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to keith)

I know a lot about repairs and I ask why you want to buy a guitar with so many problems. No vale na.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2012 16:07:05

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to Morante)

Morante: I hear you, but it's incredible sounding and beautiful guitar and it's for a fair price.
Obviously I will have to show it to a luthier and see estimated price for the repairs before doing a final decision of purchase.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2012 16:42:07

Jim Kirby

Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to tele)

I think all the concerns over what you could be letting yourself in for are valid, although I still don't understand the geometry so I'm not sure why (or if) a problem exists.

Bellying behind the bridge is a concern but it doesn't eliminate the possibility that the geometry between saddle and nut can be right. You say you have a straight line at fret level giving you a 4 mm height at bridge, and the bridge is 7mm high. With no saddle projection above bridge, that should give you a 1.5 mm action at the 12th fret, but you say it is over 3mm. Is the neck bowed forward horribly? The geometry makes no sense.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2012 16:51:50

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to Jim Kirby)

quote:

I think all the concerns over what you could be letting yourself in for are valid, although I still don't understand the geometry so I'm not sure why (or if) a problem exists.

Bellying behind the bridge is a concern but it doesn't eliminate the possibility that the geometry between saddle and nut can be right. You say you have a straight line at fret level giving you a 4 mm height at bridge, and the bridge is 7mm high. With no saddle projection above bridge, that should give you a 1.5 mm action at the 12th fret, but you say it is over 3mm. Is the neck bowed forward horribly? The geometry makes no sense.

I mean the height of the bridge without the bone saddle is about 7mm(sorry it's only estimated height and could be a millimeter or two higher).

The neck might indeed be bowed and be the cause of the high action, what would be the best way to check it? Is looking at it from the bottom and measuring the relief enough?

It is even possible that the fretboard side cracks are caused by a loose brace and that would indeed move the neck I suppose. If there is a loose brace, will the action improve by gluing it back?

Thanks guys you really help me out(I will also take it to the luthier), and I believe with both advice I can see if it's possible to make it perfect.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2012 17:03:48

Jim Kirby

Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to tele)

2 mm higher would be a classical bridge.

Neck bow you would see as a gap under your straightedge when laid along the frets (straightedge should touch all the frets or show some small amount of relief, as in any other guitar - too much relief not good, as on any other guitar. Harder to correct on a classical/flamenco without a truss rod.)

Good luck with it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2012 18:29:26

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to Jim Kirby)

I suppose one can check the neck bow by placing fingers on 12th and 1st fret and seeing the gap at 6th-7th fret like checking the relief? Or is it better in this case to measure from 1st and last fret? What would be normal amount of relief at the 6th-7th fret?

Also is there any way to see if the cracks near the fretboard have caused the fretboard to move forward/slightly below the top? I would suspect that if there is a loose brace underneath it would cause some movement?

And does anyone know if noticeable cracks along the freboard sides can exist on a guitar that has no loose braces under the fretboard?

thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2012 18:39:27

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Antonio R. Pardo guitar issues, ... (in reply to tele)

So I took the guitar to the best luthier of the country and he said that the guitar was completely fine besides the crack in the back which is easy to fix. I am glad for that and all your guys help!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 21 2012 16:42:52