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Okay after trying to study accompaniment for these Soleá*, I am really getting frustrated as I cannot accompany and mark it accurately and cannot even sing it without the guitar or al gople/palmas. Can somebody expand on this style?
*NOTE: Its the first letra on both that drives me MAD.
Paco's accompaniment on this one really confuses me.
The chords here are quite different from the standard solea that I am used to.
RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to Alonte)
A couple of month ago, I focused on some solea de triana letras sung by Antonio el Arenero coz I really enjoyed their meaning.
Don't know if this help coz el Arenero did not phrase the letras as chiquitete (chiquitete sung the tercio more rapidly).
I focused on the specific letras like the ones starting at 1'30 where el Arenero yells the very first word of the letra. And not on the ones (with the verse glued all together) that alternated with these.
Anda diciendo tu madre que tu vale mas que yo que ni tu ni tu familia ni el dios que a ti te pario
So on these letras, the 3rd time that Arenero repeat "que tu vale mas que yo", he ends up on G chord. So the cambio is on 10 and not on 3 in the next compas. Then he stays on G until he finish "que ni tu familia" on C on 10. That's the only particularity i noticed (less the yelling word at the beginning of the letra).
On other letras he may only repeat 2 times the second verse, but the G always came on 10 (in the last repeating verse).
Basically, in the 2nd vid you posted Chiquitete sung these kind of letras at 0'55. But he glued verse 1 and 2 in one compas, then repeated verse 2 (ends up with G on 10 the second time).
If i'm not mistaken, in the 1st vid you post, the 1st letra he sung, was the same structure with the G cambio on 10 (instead of 3 in the next compas). Fact is, he not repeat the verse and sung them all glued.
Hope this make sense. Obviously, i'm not sure at all, so if i stated some BS, others may correct 'em
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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
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RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to Alonte)
In the first version, Paco anticipates the second compas with the G chord....he could have just gone Am-G-F- and resolve F-E like normal, then 3rd compas G7-C more or less as he did but he was gluing to the very shortened compas of the melody by puting C early and going to F realizing the guy was resolving so early. I would have just resolved "late" so the entire letra would fit the 4 compase like this E->Am first compas AmGF, E-F-E second compas E-G7, G7-C third compas Fourth compas same as 2nd.
Make sense? When you have compas like paco here, and the exact melody in your head, you can mess around easier with exact tono placement to answer the melody rather than get boxed in as the rest of us. So his literal version he puts Am on 12, G on 3 (sort of a mistake) F on 10, then again G on 12 and 3, but C on 8 then F on 10, and finally a normal chording on the final compas. He sort of smiles knowing it was odd. No harm done, when you have compas you can easy chase those "free sung" verses....I have been saying for a long time now that the singer is singing the melody libre unless they only know the boxed in baile version, and the guitar simply maintains the groove while grabbing tonos when appropriate. Its a challenge and rapidily fading art IMO, as the boxed in versions seem to be taking over.
My recommendation to you guys is to mainly work on compas and not worry so much exact tono placements just yet. NO matter what Paco's compas is crystal clear and should not throw YOU guys just cuz he puts chords in weird spots.
RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to Alonte)
Woah this is tough. I am even more tricked out by the Solea you posted Mezzo. The tricky part is when I hear a melodic cue, my brain thinks "shouldnt that have happen at 3 instead of 10, was I lost or is the singer cruzo or ?"
You are right Ricardo, it could have sounded like a mistake? But I counted it slowly and his compas is spot on. He owned it. Altough I am a point where some melodic cues will prompt a marking or a chord change and the next thing I know.... I am lost in the compas and get so trapped that such would have happened in beat 3 or beat 10 etc that I am completely lost.
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RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to Alonte)
quote:
Woah this is tough.
I agree. I recently played for a very knowledgeable singer who recommended listening to the singer Paco Taranto when studying solea de triana. Outside the standard alcala letras, I find solea cante very confusing. The more i watch different videos, the more i notice guitarists and singers doing different things. Some of them not making sense to me at all.
When the singer explained what changes he wanted where, I could do it no problem. But prior to that i was lost.
RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to Alonte)
quote:
I am even more tricked out by the Solea you posted Mezzo.
Yeah my bad. Indeed now that i'm listenning to others cantaores, i think that this anticipating cambio (if it really happened) is something very peculiar to El Arenero style. So it's absolutly not a good generalization point to made.
As I said I focused on him coz I enjoyed his letras, but haven't dug around to compare with others trianas form...
I've checked Norman's site and the nearest style I've found for these Arenero letras are : Ramon el ollero (revuelta letra) and triana anonymous 5 (Jose menese - which seems to be the most similar to my ears).
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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to Alonte)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Alonte
Woah this is tough. The tricky part is when I hear a melodic cue, my brain thinks "shouldnt that have happen at 3 instead of 10, was I lost or is the singer cruzo or ?"
Altough I am a point where some melodic cues will prompt a marking or a chord change and the next thing I know.... I am lost in the compas and get so trapped that such would have happened in beat 3 or beat 10 etc that I am completely lost.
Welcome to the club. My experience is that cues that we consider to be linked to "a certain place in the compas" sometimes are delayed (or otherwise shifted) and dropped at places we don't expect them to be. Sometimes they catch up the delayed time in the next compas and sometimes you have to struggle on a little bit longer.
As long as only the internal compas is alternative and the melody still fallows a "well known track" things are still "relative easy to handle", but when the melody becomes less clear as well things can indeed become pretty difficult, not only for you and me but also for Cepero.
The strategy i adapt is to maintain "business as usual" with my right hand and to try to find the matching chords with my left hand. If a chord changes at a strange part of the compas i try to fallow it with my left hand as soon as possible but my right hand will fallow later, giving the accents that fits the "normal compas" I guess Cepero adapts the same strategy. One of his strategies is to drop a chord at 3, colpes at 6 and 8 and to drop the next chord at 10 and a colpe at 12. This gives him a solid compas and won't give him the feeling "i'm lost" when things become less clear. He has various right hand patterns that give him that "solid base". As a result he can "limit" problems to finding the right chords. Obviously when he want's to correct/improve/consolidate a chord he can alter his "right hand strategy".
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RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to KMMI77)
quote:
Outside the standard alcala letras, I find solea cante very confusing. The more i watch different videos, the more i notice guitarists and singers doing different things. Some of them not making sense to me at all.
NOrman's site is a great source to study. It's really hard unless you just take guitar and try to "Guitar less cante" like we did in the cante accomp thread. Watching all the different interpretartions of Solea in Rito y geografia really cleared things up for me how accomp works with the singing. Especially good was watching Chozas sing his own made up soleas and how the two guitars accompanied him, "fighting" which tono to do when. It all made sense to me after seeing that. Suddenly the whole boxed in "cante a compas should be this way...." seemed so bland and dimensionless to me.
RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to Ricardo)
Ricardo, are those videos on YT? I dont have Rito privately but would appreciate if you can point out some examples. I am getting really obsessed with studying this and enriching my knowledge of the palo.
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RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to Ricardo)
Thanks for the link Ricardo,
I know what you mean about the whole boxed in dimensionless style. We can blame dancers for that.
The openness of solea cante is interesting when it creates deliberate dissonance between the cante and chord. It sometimes creates some really interesting and unique moments.
However it's confusing to follow only by ear, even if you have a solid knowledge of solea, without prior learning of the singers intended letra tones. It also adds to the confusion if a singer fails to reach an intended tone when the structure dictates a certain tone.
Sometimes i feel like the guitarist is playing something for the sake of it when something else could sound better. But overly mounting it pushes it back into the boxed in structure again
It's obviously best when one spends a lot of time playing for the same singer until you know where he goes, and how he intends it. Then the singer gets to know the guitarist as well.
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RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to KMMI77)
quote:
However it's confusing to follow only by ear, even if you have a solid knowledge of solea, without prior learning of the singers intended letra tones. It also adds to the confusion if a singer fails to reach an intended tone when the structure dictates a certain tone.
Well, that "confusion" you speak of is the whole point of the fun of being LED by the singer. You are not really supposed to "know" where the singer is going before hand. IN the right moment, even the singer does not know where he or she might go with tonos and timing and repetion etc, until a split second before. The guitar responds, it's beautiful. You seem to think the "intended tone" that a singer "failed" to make clear is a confusing mistake, when in fact that is the beauty of the mprovisational freedom the singer is supposed to have, in addition to stretching or shortening repeating, etc ie the timing. And the mistake of the accompanyment should only entail falling out of compas, or being lost in the structure of the letra (resolving early or late). Anything else that might "go wrong" is actually OK.
quote:
It's obviously best when one spends a lot of time playing for the same singer until you know where he goes, and how he intends it. Then the singer gets to know the guitarist as well.
Well, not for the sake of learning. It's actually better to get used of the different ways singers will interpret things. Of course the singer might like that so they feel they are "training" a guitarist, and again that's not good either since the guitarist also is afforded some improvisational freedoms when fielding tonos. So in a sense, the better singer has worked with many different guitarists too. HOpe that makes sense. Of course in practice, artists need their comfort zones, both guitarists and singers end up teaming up and sticking to their main guy more often than not.
quote:
Sometimes i feel like the guitarist is playing something for the sake of it when something else could sound better. But overly mounting it pushes it back into the boxed in structure again
Well, it's nice to have a mix of both concepts. When you the accompanist realize exactly what the singer is doing, perhaps from a recording, well, you can on the fly attempt to copy the exact accompaniment say tomatito did or who ever it was....this can be cool, OR it can totally backfire if the singer changes it up....again, the beauty and excitement of improvisation within the structures of flamenco. The aficionado observing from the outside can say, with arms folded across the chest "...oh that's not how that goes, the singer changed compas, and the tonos were supposed to be bla bla bla"... but in the end is missing out on the "Fun" and changing improvisational dimension of the art.
RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to Alonte)
Hi Alonte,
Some Triana styles use different chords at different times compared to "normal" soleá. In the first video, I think the style is Sordillo 2 but he's singing it with the delivery of another Triana style called Pinea in which the lines are sung one after another, and the whole thing goes by very quickly. Common Triana aire. It's what mezzo said about "the verse all glued together". In the second video, the first style is Pinea. I hope you realize that in the first video there are actually three cantes. I'm not sure what the middle one is but as soon as it ends he jumps into Juaniquí 4, which also has an unusual melodic twist. So the first cante is linked together quickly, the second cante is straightforward but hard to anticipate (his first line doesn't give much of a clue) and he extends the second cante into the third, which has unusual harmonies. Not easy to accompany.
Some of the Triana styles have some peculiar characteristics. In some (apolás), you have to change to G and/or C (por arriba) before you get to the cambio, as I'm sure you've noticed by now. Also, there's a group of Triana styles called soleá "del Zurraque" that are usually sung without a strict rhythmic context, although it will depend on the artists. In general terms, though, it's very common for Triana-based singers and guitarists to shorten or lengthen the compás. You'll hear the II chord (F por arriba), some kind of III/VI cambio (G/C) and the classic resolution (back to E for three beats), but in a completely improvised way that has nothing to do with compás. Happens in other parts of Spain, too, but not so much in Cádiz, Jerez, etc. It really sounds like beginners who don't have a firm grasp of compás, basically because most of them don't, even in the case of veteran artists.
Ricardo's making some good points about the fun of following a singer who makes the letra fit the compás in unusual ways, although I wouldn't use the word "libre" because there is (or should be) compás keeping everything lined up. Since the 1980s, soleá has lost a lot of its rhythmic context, and the singers who have been inspired by the recordings made since then have pretty much turned soleá into mush. The tempo is slower and more flexible, which allows singers to more clearly highlight certain details, but many aficionados feel that the result is self-indulgent and onanistic. Many of life's more memorable moments involve knowing what's going to happen but not when or how it's going to happen, and this is the beauty of keeping cante relatively pure and making it fit the compás in unusual ways ("on the fly," if you will). When this happens, the letra is what guides the tocaor (the tonos, too, but the letra is important). For example, if a singer stretched out the beginning and paused for a few seconds and you realized that there were still a few more words left in the first line(s), you'd want to wait for the last lines of verse to play the cambio.
IMO, the future of cante lies in new letras. When you change the words, the delivery of the melody changes in subtle ways, which results in new variations in the best of cases and, at the very least, that ideal state of knowing what's going to happen but not when or how it's going to happen.
quote:
You are not really supposed to "know" where the singer is going before hand.
I wouldn't agree with that, especially if you took away the quotation marks. Some time ago, I posted an interview in which Niño Ricardo addresses this issue in no uncertain terms. It's true that nowadays there's no way to know what some singers are going to do, but IMO the vast majority of those singers are not improving the cantes. Of course, if nobody broke the rules, there'd be no new variations, and it has to be said that it's not terribly wrong to modify a style with elements of other styles, especially if there's going to be just one soleá on an album or in a performance (by soleá I mean a series of cantes). But if there are going to be several soleás, the results are usually better when the singer knows enough to keep certain details within certain styles. It sounds cheap and gimmicky when the same detail shows up in several different styles.
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RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Well, that "confusion" you speak of is the whole point of the fun of being LED by the singer. You are not really supposed to "know" where the singer is going before hand. IN the right moment, even the singer does not know where he or she might go with tonos and timing and repetion etc, until a split second before. The guitar responds, it's beautiful. You seem to think the "intended tone" that a singer "failed" to make clear is a confusing mistake, when in fact that is the beauty of the mprovisational freedom the singer is supposed to have, in addition to stretching or shortening repeating, etc ie the timing. And the mistake of the accompanyment should only entail falling out of compas, or being lost in the structure of the letra (resolving early or late). Anything else that might "go wrong" is actually OK.
Hey Ricardo,
I agree with all you say. I enjoy that fun " listening and following in the moment" side as well. Just at certain times i also feel a different freedom enabled through knowing what is coming up. From a guitarist perspective.
Thanks for the additional info Norman. I will have to look further into some of the things you have brought to my attention.
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RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to NormanKliman)
quote:
For example, if a singer stretched out the beginning and paused for a few seconds and you realized that there were still a few more words left in the first line(s), you'd want to wait for the last lines of verse to play the cambio.
The word "wait" is what it's all about. To me there are two camps plain and simple. You either "wait" by maintaing compas and put the tono change on a different beat than you might have expected to (for example change on 3 instead of previous 10 or 12)....OR....(perhaps in reference to your "mush" solea?) the guitar can be elastic with tempo, sort of keeping the singing "in the box" although changing the size of the box in the moment. I find camp 1 above to be "dying out" while camp 2 taking over.....due to a preconceived concept of how the cante "should fit" in compas. Again, my personal theory this is due to singers learning how to sing for baile in order to work, over time evolved the "box" concept, and improvisation changed from having the guitar "field" tonos maintaing compas, to singers "improvising" within the box.
quote:
I wouldn't agree with that, especially if you took away the quotation marks.
To clarify the quotation marks on "not supposed to 'know'"... which ties in with my use of term "libre" singing over the compas. We have been over this before so we remain at odds somewhat on this issue (remember Oliver de Triana vs Mairena etc). So what I mean is that you must have a blue print of the cante, the melody and structure, in your head of course, but you dont need to KNOW exactly how or when it will shape up. Now I don't mean only the rhythm and structure, but also the notes themselves, the ones that are "subject to change", the important notes that give info of tonos to the guitar. Of course classical interpretations are gonna be always the same, but IMO singers are allowed to throw in flat notes to call out "cambios" as they please. I am sure many aficionados consider this a big no no unless it's bulerias, but I personally disagree, I think singers can do it on ANY Style and the guitar must not assume or ignore these wims and accompany as if it were the classical version. Instead the good accompanist will follow the singers lead and let the singer take heat for it, if it might be bad taste or not.
This is my opinion, and of course I make the distinction internally if a singer is doing something deliberate and controlled or simpley cuz they dont' know the exact original version I am familiar with and "faking" it. To me both ways are equally "flamenco" and authentic, or CAN be depending on just who the singer is. This for me goes with ALL cantes, not just certain classical ones, or rarely performed ones. The libre aspect of the melody fitting over compas is for me the same for any style solea as would be ANY fandango por solea. The fandango is not tied to any part of the compas, the singer simply sings the fandango and as each tono is called in the guitar answers while still marking compas. Don't matter if its on 10 or what, the singer is cued off guitar accents but need not distinguish 3 from 8 or 12 or 6. The bounderies of improvisation with that freedom are limitless, and creativity since the times of this practice has diminished.
I mean think about the fact that in the golden era the singers were MAKING UP their own cantes....now we have only classical interpretations. Look at choza above and try to imagine a young kid walking into a flamenco bar and singing his own soleas like that...or arriving at a dance class or tablao and singing that. I don't mean exact as choza style, but rather his OWN style. He would not be taken seriously. THAT is what the problem has evolved to with cante not moving forward, the idea of boxed in classic versions can't be changed much without being criticized ridiculed, and in case of young people, they will be "taught" how to do it "properly". It's no wonder the freedom of writting "pop" songs over rumba or buleria has taken over the young generation of creators.
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RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to KMMI77)
Here is an other example of triana cante. Again, Oliver is shown in rito with a different guitarist who ALSO cuts the compas all over the place like this. I am starting to wonder if there is a conspiracy against the guy! Anyway I shouldn't have to point out all of the compas cutting the guitar is doing here. The reason is because he is trying to force what Oliver is doing into "the box". My point is that if we heard N. Ricardo or Marchena or Morao or parrilla Cepero etc, they would NOT even need to cut compas like this. You can argue against me but its not possible to do an objective test as Oliver here is adapting to the off compas guitar as well. WE couldnt fairly say extract the cante and try to lay a normal compas guitar under him and show how to deal with what he sings, because as the guitar cuts it up, so Oliver has new reference points. If anyone has recording of him with Morao I would love to hear it.
EDIT..AH HAH!!!!!!! So notice how the guy now suddenly like MAGIC has very sophisticated but PERFECT compas with his cante OLE!!!!:
RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
THAT is what the problem has evolved to with cante not moving forward, the idea of boxed in classic versions can't be changed much without being criticized ridiculed, and in case of young people, they will be "taught" how to do it "properly".
That's seems to be a good point. But how do you determine if a singer is doing is own stuff or if he had compas trouble or harmonical issues? In a case of a cantaor who haven't YET being 'lobotomized' by a dance teacher, where do you draw the line between : ok that's not fit but nevermind, do what you feel and if it's all over the place, no prob? and you should/must do it this way?
(assuming the cantaor is not a professional, but an aficionado)
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to mezzo)
I posted my aficionado version of a Paco Taranto Solea de Triana- any comments on cante or guitar welcome. If anyone wants to know the chords I use I can upload my 'beginners map'.
Sorry Ricardo! But I can only say starting with my beginners maps has meant I am now becoming able to follow with no idea where the singer's going next and that is the most fun, creative and satisfying but takes a while to learn. Practicing knowing what is coming in advance is tuning my ear into listening to the cante melodies and what chords to play when it changes.
I agree that unboxed solea is harder but much more beautiful. Now when Juan and I play Alcala we also extend or shorten cante lines across compas changing tonos in irregular places- it gives so much more room for freedom of expression. I can only agree with Ricardo that having compas is the most important thing so that one is not reliant on chord changing or particular phrases happening at certain points but compas is just solid underneath whatever's on top- takes lots of practice.
RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to Alonte)
Interesting thing... When I listen I get it. When I try to play with the videos, I am completely lost again. Arghhh. Here's another one:
I remember listening to an interview once when a veteran said, now all cante serves the baile and it lost it's magic. I believe this is the freedom from the boxed in structure you guys are talking about.
EDIT: What do you guys think about the accompaniment here???
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RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
I posted my aficionado version of a Paco Taranto Solea de Triana- any comments on cante or guitar welcome
Sorry I didn't have a chance to comment long ago on that. I felt you need to fill in more compas by working on your arpegios. It really brightens things up and gives more reference for the singer too. As per the original recording you are copying, I don't know why but I don't like the Dm7 chord, I would prefer just E7 under what the singer sings, or moving back and forth between F and E like normal compasing. And in your version there seemed an early C chord and maybe a missed C chord or glanced over but its a long cante so I'd have to study it more to give details. The main thing is the compas issue and the structure is more clear when Franco was playing this because of the way he drives the compas very clearly.
quote:
What do you guys think about the accompaniment here???
IT was good. I thought the way he just hits bass notes sometimes sounded funny, but it gave a clear marking of compas anyway so it was OK. I prefer to hear "normal compas" strumming mixed with arps, but that's me.
RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Again, my personal theory this is due to singers learning how to sing for baile in order to work, over time evolved the "box" concept, and improvisation changed from having the guitar "field" tonos maintaing compas, to singers "improvising" within the box.
Your wording in that sentence isn't very clear. Are you saying that soleá started out and developed over time as an accessory to baile and that singers have recently freed it from that context? I must be misunderstanding you because I'm sure you know that (1) there is no dancing on the vast majority of recordings and (2) working for dancers is entirely circumstantial. About the second point, Spaniards who sing flamenco start doing so when they're small children and, even if they end up working for baile for a few years or the rest of their lives, nearly all of them know how to sing soleá without the confining/deforming context of dance. In its natural state (no guitar, maybe just some guys standing at a bar counter), soleá is usually sung fast and the tempo is kept steady, except when it gets even faster toward the end.
quote:
OR....(perhaps in reference to your "mush" solea?) the guitar can be elastic with tempo, sort of keeping the singing "in the box" although changing the size of the box in the moment.
Yes, that kind of dilation of the tempo is part of what I had in mind. Rigid tempo is not a good thing, either, but what I don't like is the combination of slow tempo and dilation. It's just a way to make things easier for the singer and, if you think about it, it's not too different from the speech patterns of someone who's had too much to drink, or the meandering path of that drunk trying to get home.
quote:
Instead the good accompanist will follow the singers lead and let the singer take heat for it, if it might be bad taste or not.
Yeah, I agree with that. All I'm saying is that a good accompanist should know traditional cante.
quote:
I mean think about the fact that in the golden era the singers were MAKING UP their own cantes...
How could that ever be a fact? All we can do is guess, and, actually, it looks like they were making small changes to existing cantes. There are many examples on my site. It's obvious that until recent times, a connection with the past has always been a fundamental part of flamenco.
IMO, what's been happening in cante for the last 30 years is that some singers are trying to break away from the past rather than bringing it up to date. Throwing out the baby with the bath water, if you will. It's similar to the "liberty vs. licentiousness" debate applied to Spanish society (excess that comes with newfound freedom). Most young people today eagerly embrace modern trends and don't like "old-fashioned" things. If you ask about Mairena in Spain, it won't be long before you hear that he was an authoritarian figure who only wanted to squelch artistic freedom. Yet most singers today copy Mairena's siguiriyas, tonás and, to a lesser degree, his soleás. Nothing wrong with that, as Torre and Chacón served as models for many singers, including Mairena, but also Pastora, her brother Tomás, Mojama and Niño de Cabra, to name a few. The difference is that personal variations used to involve small changes made to cantes and nowadays it's "anything goes."
quote:
So notice how the guy now suddenly like MAGIC has very sophisticated but PERFECT compas with his cante OLE!!!!:
Yeah, look who's accompanying him. What, you've never kept a compasless singer in compas with your accompaniment?
quote:
THAT is what the problem has evolved to with cante not moving forward, the idea of boxed in classic versions can't be changed much without being criticized ridiculed, and in case of young people, they will be "taught" how to do it "properly".
Of course classic versions can be changed. It's exactly what Torre, Pastora, Tomás, Mairena and many others did (and very few are still doing). What those singers didn't do was to bring extraneous elements to their cantes (for example, a tercio of tientos in a soleá). I asked Vicente Soto "Sordera" if he thought it was difficult to create new soleás, siguiriyas and tonás. His answer was that the hard part isn't creating new cantes but coming up with something better than the classics. So I don't agree with your definition of "the problem." You don't have to believe me, but there are plenty of old-timers who like Camarón but aren't impressed by his anemic-sounding clones. As I said in my last post, I feel that "the solution" is the use of new or different letras for the same old cantes because it necessarily changes the melody (and puts the singer in a position to come up with worthy variations and/or new cantes). That and aligning cante and compás in different ways (what we've been talking about in this thread) are the best strategies to develop cante. Unfortunately, few singers are doing that nowadays. Of course, every once in a while, a genius like Camarón comes along and does things his own way. He wasn't even particularly good at soleá but that "Amarilla y con ojeras" cante of his (probably closer to bulería por soleá) is held in high regard by artists and aficionados alike.
If you like, you could explain your comment a little: where's the criticism coming from and who's going to do the teaching, for example. I applaud your skepticism, because there's an awful lot of misinformation and nonsense out there, but not all of it is coming from the purists.
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: HELP!!! Solea de Triana (Chiquetete) (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
EDIT..AH HAH!!!!!!! So notice how the guy now suddenly like MAGIC has very sophisticated but PERFECT compas with his cante OLE!!!!:
good find, I like Pacos little statement at 0:47 I'm going to work out a few of these compases. Lots of interesting chord positioning. Nice ideas for solo guitar as well.
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