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flamenco vs nuevo flamenco
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xirdneH_imiJ
Posts: 1900
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
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RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to rogeliocan)
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thing is, "that" genre of music somehow got labelled as nuevo flamenco, while in fact it has nothing to do with it...it's played on guitar, sometimes uses the phrygian scale...of course it'll be mocked by real flamencos...this wouldn't happen if it was named anything else, say #&@, then people wouldn't mistake "us" for "them"...it's really annoying having to explain the difference all the time...i think with the history of flamenco, with us putting in so much work in it, we earn the right to mock that genre which is frankly, crap compared to what flamenco is... and i find it very difficult to understand real flamencos defending our own rights to mockery... (and i haven't even mentioned the economic part...we're being ripped off, big time)
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Date Aug. 12 2012 13:52:31
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to qzack)
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There is a difference between nuevo flamenco and fakemenco. Nuevo flamenco is still considered to be flamenco. Although one might debate whether one prefers nuevo or traditional flamenco (I much prefer the more traditional), nuevo still has characteristics that define it as flamenco. Although I didn't like the bass and harmonica evident in Paco de Lucia's latest tour, and it didn't appeal to me as flamenco, I still recognized that it is flamenco with the boundaries pushed beyond my taste. I did like the concert as good music; I just didn't like it as flamenco. Fakemenco, on the other hand, is clearly not flamenco but is passed off as flamenco. If I remember correctly, Ottmar Liebert had an album that was listed as flamenco. Ottmar Liebert does not play flamenco, and, in my opinion, is an example of fakemenco, since he passed his playing off as flamenco. Another example that is sometimes passed off as flamenco is the group The Gypsy Kings. Now, the Gypsy Kings play very good music. I like it a lot. But one of their concerts in Washington, DC was advertised as featuring "fiery flamenco songs such as Bamboleo." Bamboleo??? If they had not made the claim that Bamboleo was an example of "fiery flamenco" they would have been fine, in my book. By making such a claim, they passed into the realm of fakemenco. Cheers, Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 12 2012 15:34:25
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Ricardo
Posts: 14884
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to qzack)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: qzack Can you guys mention the differences beetween flamenco and nuevo flamenco? Oh yeah another question My friend ask me whether Paul Gilbert's Flamingo is Flamenco or not I can tell that its not "the actual flamenco" since it doesn't have any compas but I don't think I have any other details to make them sure What's your opinion guys? Thanks :) Simply put, it has to fall with in the frame of the proper song form to be called flamenco music. To equate what you will understand, think of the blues. It is a clearly defined song form, though it can be faster or slower, different types of swing, etc, but very distinct from say "BLUESY ROCK" or bluesy jazz. you can have the same chords and same scale, but if it is not literally the same 12 bar structure it simply is NOT THE BLUES. No respectable rock or jazz guitarist would confuse what they do with a proper blues guitarist, and often make the distinction. But for sure some dumb kids do a bend on the pentatonic scale and say "look at me, I am playing the blues now!!!!!". In flamenco music we have more than one type of form, but similar idea, and if you break the rules of the structure, it is not flamenco any more. We don't have a term like "Flamenco-y" like when we call some rock "bluesy", but you can get the idea from the word "spanishy" which may use similar chords and scales, but not the proper form as flamenco. Hope that clears it without getting into specifics. About big dogs and jealousy....don't forget Paco de Lucia had to call out on Ottmar back in the 90's when he got constantly pestered about the "new flamenco guy Ottmar Leibert"....so the "fakemenco" label was an inevitablity after the genre took off and perpetuated the confusion.
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CD's and transcriptions available here: www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Aug. 12 2012 16:27:50
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Munin
Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong
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RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH There is a difference between nuevo flamenco and fakemenco. Nuevo flamenco is still considered to be flamenco. Although one might debate whether one prefers nuevo or traditional flamenco (I much prefer the more traditional), nuevo still has characteristics that define it as flamenco. Although I didn't like the bass and harmonica evident in Paco de Lucia's latest tour, and it didn't appeal to me as flamenco, I still recognized that it is flamenco with the boundaries pushed beyond my taste. I did like the concert as good music; I just didn't like it as flamenco. Fakemenco, on the other hand, is clearly not flamenco but is passed off as flamenco. If I remember correctly, Ottmar Liebert had an album that was listed as flamenco. Ottmar Liebert does not play flamenco, and, in my opinion, is an example of fakemenco, since he passed his playing off as flamenco. Another example that is sometimes passed off as flamenco is the group The Gypsy Kings. Now, the Gypsy Kings play very good music. I like it a lot. But one of their concerts in Washington, DC was advertised as featuring "fiery flamenco songs such as Bamboleo." Bamboleo??? If they had not made the claim that Bamboleo was an example of "fiery flamenco" they would have been fine, in my book. By making such a claim, they passed into the realm of fakemenco. Cheers, Bill The word "nuevo flamenco" isn't to be understood literally, I think people here mean it as the self-descriptive marketing term seemingly popular in the US that guys like Ottmar etc. use (basically the very thing you describe in your second paragraph). So no, "nuevo flamenco" doesn't equal "modern flamenco" for most people.
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Date Aug. 12 2012 17:47:30
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to Munin)
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quote:
The word "nuevo flamenco" isn't to be understood literally, I think people here mean it as the self-descriptive marketing term seemingly popular in the US that guys like Ottmar etc. use (basically the very thing you describe in your second paragraph). That has not been my understanding of the term, Munin, but if you are correct and the majority of aficionados consider your definition, cited above, to be "nuevo flamenco," then I would have to conclude that "nuevo flamenco" is a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron. It cannot be "nuevo flamenco" if it is not "flamenco" in the first place. Cheers, Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 12 2012 20:06:35
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to Arash)
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Doit, so you are basically saying flamencos are wannabe investment bankers walking around with dollar signs in their eyes whole day, without making a penny Then they must be all stupid to chose flamenco as their income source and be jelous through out the whole gig they do each day... cause for sure most know that they can't have the success of paco or vicente,,, no wait, they are stupid, and delusional at the same time,,,they all believe they can be the next paco and have a villa in mexico. thats why they play complex stuff instead of repeating 2 chords and show us their naked feet.
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Date Aug. 12 2012 21:08:23
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