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RE: Question about Diego del Morao falsetta
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Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
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 RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ
here's a tab for you:
http://www.tabsflamenco.com/tabs/Diego_del_Morao_-_Falsetita_por_Bulerias.pdf
http://www.tabsflamenco.com/tabs/Diego_del_Morao_-_Falsetita_por_Bulerias.gpx (for GP6)
After studying the bloody thing again and again in various recordings (that keep changing interpretation depending on the speed and the mood of the moment) i can conclude that he varies between two rhythmical variations, 1 ON beat and 1 OF beat.
The on beat variation you find in above score, the of beat version is the one i posted on previous page..
ON BEAT: starts on 1 ends on 3,5 (syncopic 4)
--------------------------------------------------
-*---------------------*------------------*-------
--------------------------------------------------
-----------------------(>)------------3----------
-X----x----------------3---5---7---------------
-------------5----6------------------------------
12...and....1...and...2..and..3...and
OF BEAT: starts on 1,5 ends on 4
----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------
-*------------------*---------------------*--------
-------------------------------------------3--------
--------------------->---3----5----7--------------
-X---x---x----5----6------------------------------
12 and...1..and...2...and...3....and...4
When i practice it slowly i tap every beat with my feet. But at normal speed i prefer to count this falseta in a two-beat pattern counting the odd beats only: 12-2-4-/6-8-10/12-2-4/6-8-10- etc.
In practice this feels as a chain of 3 feet taps ***/***/***/***
In general, as long as you can feel a full compas in the melody you link those chains in pairs. 12**/6**/...... if things are less clear you can count in single chains or half compas /?**/.
One of the big advantages of (temporary) counting a 2-beat pattern (or a 3 beat pattern when that fits the melody) is that you won't get lost so easy ....if a falseta ends on first dot it's 6 and you have two dots left for a remate to 10. If a falseta ends on 3th dot you already are on 10. Another advantage is that it makes it much more easy to drop a falseta. The ON and OF beat variation are shifted half a beat in the compas so demands a "different" timing. This falseta my feet counts the odd beasts only and in general the closest feet tap is my reference point to drop a note. The OF beat variation starts just in front of my 2th feet and in fact i don't time the first note of the melody but focus on the second one that drops on 2th feet.
Of beat: * ........and * and to the * (ends right on your 3th feet)
On beat: *- and the * and to the(*) (ends syncopic before your 3th feet)
In the ON beat variation it is the 3th note that drops on 2. In this case however you can drop the falseta after first feet tap (12) which is closer in time than the 2th feet tap (2).
The ON beat variation is annotated in above link. In that score my notation is presided by 2 extra notes representing a colpe at 12 and 1 extra note on 12,5..... sometimes he plays them, some times not.
x equals 12
----------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------
--*--------------------*------------------*---------------
------------------------>------------3-------------------
--X---(3)--------------3---5---7------------------------
--------------5----6--------------------------------------
.........and...1...and..2..and..3...and
The extra note (3) is probably an upstroke of the thump hitting the A string on it's way to the E string. It's not part of the melody it self, but it is part of the groove and it might not be a bad idea to feel this extra note in your head at every on beat chain you add (in general i feel a lot of rhythmic in-betweens in my head to guide my music).
The ON beat variation you can find in above link. When i first saw it i just studied the slow OF beat variation and i was very sceptic about the rhythmic internal structures (especially the 3th and 6th chain that seemed to be totally misplaced compared to what i considered "normal compas behaviour). But wisdom comes with the years and i must conclude that Diego indeed plays the on beat variation on a regular base , including the last chain of his up tempo variations. So xirdneH_imiJ did an excellent job after all and above link very well represent the structure of the ON BEAT variation, both in melody as in chord drops. The alternative OF BEAT variation you can find on page 1 with my typed score.
In real live Diego varies his rhythm and he doesn't restrict to one version or the other ...some chains he plays on beat, others of beat. I tried to find myself the intended pattern but he never seems to play it the same way twice. I'm quite sure the first chain is intended to be ON beat. In the next rounds of the slow broke up version he favors the OF beat version that i added at my post. But as soon as he speeds up he seems to favors the ON beat version of above link. If he does it in the last chain as well he even ads an extra note on top of the normal extra note in order to finish on 6. You can find that variation on above link. The Of beat variation you can find in my typed tabs on the previous page.
In both cases you might prefer to start playing the chords straight on beat 5 and 6 and beat 11 and 12>>beat 6 and 12 is your 1th feet tap when you repeat the feet-chain.... later you can adapt the syncopated variation he favors at full speed (you can find them in above link).
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Date Aug. 6 2012 21:19:37
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to turnermoran)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turnermoran
I can't speak for Ricardo, but I'm pretty sure that what he was saying was that if you think of bulerias in 6's, you're ok.
and that you should be able to play a half compas and keep going, and if everyone is paying attention they'll go with you.
but that's based on grooving and feeling and having reason and purpose to do it. If you're just flailing and mistakenly add 2.5 beats, that's out of compas.
IN bulerias when accompanying or playing solo, medio compases (odd groups of 6 beats) are NOT cuadrao but acceptable and still considered "in compas". Like the falsesta in question is "in compas" but not "cuadrao". To be cuadrao you need to have 12 beat phrases, and it doesn't count to simply repeat a phrase that has an odd number of 6's. (for example, a falseta with 3 half compases that repeats adds up to 12, but is not cuadrao because the repeat occurs "crossed" or shifted against the 12 beat phrasing.) As erik stated earlier the simple aspect of the phrasing is revealed by the beat the falseta ends on. A phrase ending on the tail beat (4 or10) is simply over, and the next head beat is the start of a new cycle of 12. A phrase ending on a head beat (6,12) begs for a remate....an answer of some sort to book end the falseta, usually rasgueado.
With solea or alegria, it is sometimes acceptable in a guitar solo to make similar uses of half compas fasletas, but when accompanying it is generally considered wrong to cut the compas in half, even if the singer seems to be "crossed" you must maintain 12s. see cante accomp thread for more on this.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Aug. 8 2012 3:11:59
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to mezzo)
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quote:
That's what bothered me. Is the not cuadrado label implies inapropriate (+ or -) beats?
no. Plus or minus X number of beats is out of compas. plus or minus specifically 6 beats is a half compas and distuinished from being simply "out of compas" by describing it as "not cuadrao".....other wise 6 beat phrases of buleria and other forms that use it would be considered single compases. A single compas is defined as 12 for most of these related palos (buleria, solea, alegria, guajiras, etc).
It is ok to describe certain anamolies as "out of compas" even when played by professionals, but understanding when deliberate liberties are taken. Examples include the 9 beat buleria falsetas (could be described as odd quarter compases) of sabicas, N. Miguel, PDL, the rubato stretching of solea where it can seem beats are added to or eaten from a full cycle.
Finally, the half compas issue comes up with 4 count palos as well....tangos, tanguillo, rumba, tientos, taranto.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Aug. 8 2012 14:28:38
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Ricardo)
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I cant see how this went on for so long ....... saying something is not cuadrado , is just like street talk meaning ' it doesnt fit ' no more no less .
It's not an exact phrase meaning you finished 1.326 beats early or anything like that ,
Out of compass is out of the 12 beat compass you have ,,, of course you can be out of compass and not cuadrado as well ,,
Actually thats what a play like most of the time ....
I have somewhere a falseta that starts on beat 9 , which feels a bit funny , but it is worked out well and finishes right , cudrado .
SO although you think it may go wrong it doesnt and it is in compas , (except when I play it)
this is like translating , specifially the word 'caramba' it just means like ' good grief '
of course depending on what is happening at the time people will write back and say it means
good gracious
sh==
f==k
wt the hell
or any other outburst ...and they would all be right .
if someone like a singer says its not cuadrado , they are telling you that you have make an error and it didnt sound like it fitted in right ,. etc etc ....instead of the big explication .. just one word ......cuadrar
but they are not telling you anything specific about why or how to fix it ,,,...
its just the same like when I play and thenmaybe .. e.g.Ricardo says ,'thats sounded sh1t '
hes just letting me know that it could have been better but he is not specifically giving me any info as to why or how to fix it ....
street talk , cuadrar, . . things that go together well , and work , fit etc ....
no es(ta) bien cuadrado ......it doesnt fit ..work ... go together etc ... but nothing specific....
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Aug. 9 2012 17:28:04
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Ricardo)
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Once again yes , but Fuera just means out (of) compas , its just a general term and really gives you no specific info , just that your out ,...
No odd sixes are not out of compas at all ,and would never be considered so ,
Unless you did something strange before it,, and happened to start your 6 on beat 2 of 12 ,,,
in fact they are very common I wouldnt call them odd at all,, just 6's.,,also some people use them more than others
And sure dancers and singers etc may concentrate on different things . . I agree that singers would not be so much on top of the cuadrado bit , except when they want the big finish to there potent words , and if you dont go with them to support that you'll see if your fuera or muy mal cuadrado at the end .....!!!
Dancers of course would as all the steps are inside of the compas , like in a sevillanas , if you are out of compas how will they dance ?....
>quote:
the music is still IN COMPAS, simply not square. ...exactly , what i meant by it doesnt fit well , or maybe I should have said sit nicely , or maybe I cant explain it well ,....
BUt however my point was that it does not mean anything specific ,, or even the same thing every time ... as I saw was being discussed earlier ,....
Its just one of the general things that can be wrong , like you could be out of tune . the timing is wrong somehow (compas) , or it just doesnt fit ( work ) and finish wrong , ( cuadrado )
My point was that they are all just general terms and shpuld be considered so .
SO people here dont have to bend their heads trying to understand exactly what it means as it doesnt exactly mean anything , and as soon as you have a possible definition you will find and exception....
I think if you speak English just do the whole thing in your own language , or do the whole thing here in Spanish , as some terms may not translate well under certain conditions ,.....
Ask your Spanish freinds to translate the Subjunctive Tense from Spanish to English and that will keep you busy for a long time, you may get different even conflicting results but they may all be right , to some extent ,..
Thats all now ........
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Aug. 9 2012 19:43:51
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