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RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner?
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C. Vega
Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
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RE: So what is the mythology about S... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
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Generally speaking, the pale blue label border indicates a 1a model but I have seen a few with a 2a model designation and others with none at all. The usual 2a label had a red border and was printed on a different color of paper. Ramirez didn't use model designations prior to 1967, the same year they began using the extended label with the lower section showing a serial number and a signature, in this case the signature of Jose Ramirez III. The model designation would be in the area covered by the gold sticker on the lower section of the label. These were usually handwritten but occasionally stamped. An earlier version, which was more or less the equivalent of a 2a model, had the smaller pre-1967 style label but with a gold border and the first letters of the wording of the label text, but not the "Jose Ramirez" name, printed in red. The initials of the worker who assembled the guitar were usually two letters (sometimes three) enclosed in a circle and more or less centered on the foot. The initials "PC" were indeed used by Pedro Contreras Valbuena and, at least according to the information provided on the Ramirez website, by Cayetano Alvarez Luna. I've never seen the initials divided and stamped in the way shown in the photo. This guitar may well have been assembled by CAL and stamped this way to distinguish it from those assembled by Pedro Contreras Valbuena. Just as a point of information, Pedro Contreras Valbuena was not related to Manuel Contreras. And a word of warning....don't try removing those gold stickers yourself. They have a very tenacious adhesive and after many years they can be extremely difficult to remove without serious damage to the label itself. I you really want to get rid of them I'd suggest talking to a good paper conservator. A local museum can probably direct you to one.
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Date Jul. 22 2012 13:14:48
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a_arnold
Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
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RE: So what is the mythology about S... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
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quote:
I'm not quite sure what to picture by a relieved bass-side fingerboard. Eric, I'll post a pic when the guitar arrives if I can get the length of the fingerboard in focus. Basically, imagine a normal flat fingerboard, and then plane or sand off a right triangular wedge on the bass side between the 12th fret and the soundhole. The right angle is at the bass end of the 19th fret. The 2 legs of the right triangle are the 19th fret itself and the edge of the fingerboard between the 19th to the 12th fret. The hypotenuse goes from the treble end of the 19th fret to the bass end of the 12th fret. It is not a big effect -- maybe a millimeter removed at the 19th fret, tapering to nothing along the hypotenuse. The advantage: lower action; all the other strings can be set closer to the fingerboard without causing buzz in the bass strings, which is where buzz happens. The disadvantages are 2: it makes the action higher on the bass side, but we rarely fret above the 12th fret on the bass strings anyway, so that is a small price to pay for overall lower action. Also, it presents a minor problem in setting frets 12-19 because they bend slightly over the angle caused by the hypotenuse. To some extent, this is relieved by sanding to round over the hypotenuse to turn the angle into a gentle curve. The fret wire bends very easily to conform. The overall effect when looking down the surface of the fingerboard is that the surface appears to twist so that the 19th fret is not in the same plane as the 1st. Non-luthiers sometimes wrongly call this a "twisted neck". The neck is actually straight, and the glue surface between neck and fingerboard is a flat plane. Only the fretted surface of the fingerboard twists. I've been told that quite a few luthiers have copied this concept but I don't know their names. It is a lot of trouble to go to, though, and not many guitarists even notice the subtle improvement.
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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
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Date Jul. 22 2012 14:05:42
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a_arnold
Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
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RE: So what is the mythology about S... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
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quote:
relieved bass-side fingerboard I have a theory about Sabicas and that Ramirez fingerboard, which, incidentally, also has wider string spacing. Theory: Lower action obviously makes for faster playing, but the relieved bass side also allows you to push the guitar more without buzz. This contributed to Sabicas' strong punchy sound, even at fast speeds. It sounds like he's playing a guitar with high action very fast. Wider string spacing also allows the player, when pushing himself, to sacrifice some precision for greater speed. I could be wrong about this. My teacher (Carlos Ramos) played a Santos Hernandez and a Ramirez, and both had high action setups. He just had strong hands. Incidentally, I recently learned that Ramos was Sabicas' first choice as a duet partner, but Ramos, with characteristic modesty, declined the offer on the grounds that he wasn't up to it. So Sabicas turned to Mario Escudero, and the rest is history. I suspect that Ramos (a student of Ramon Montoya) thought Sabicas' playing was just too far outside the mainstream. Certainly Ramos was a modest man, but he had no reason to be. Maybe he just didn't want to be anyone's "second guitar".
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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
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Date Jul. 22 2012 15:34:34
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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RE: So what is the mythology about S... (in reply to a_arnold)
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quote:
Incidentally, I recently learned that Ramos was Sabicas' first choice as a duet partner, but Ramos, with characteristic modesty, declined the offer on the grounds that he wasn't up to it. So Sabicas turned to Mario Escudero, and the rest is history. I suspect that Ramos (a student of Ramon Montoya) thought Sabicas' playing was just too far outside the mainstream. Certainly Ramos was a modest man, but he had no reason to be. Maybe he just didn't want to be anyone's "second guitar". Just to be clear, playing duets with another player does not make one a "second guitar." Mario was never "second guitar" to Sabicas when they played duets. You only have to listen to their duets to see that. Carlos Ramos was a monster virtuoso. If he declined Sabicas' offer, it would not have been from fear of being second guitar, but more likely as you said, due to his modesty. Ramon
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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
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Date Jul. 22 2012 15:58:31
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