To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That is The Question

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Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That is Th...

Personally I think many of us spend too much time with tabs. In my opinion, the best teacher is our two ears and the bit of matter between them (in my case, very little). How many times do you learn something from a tab and it just doesn't sound right? I would venture to say in most, if not all cases. I have spent hours working a piece out from tab, only to spend countless hours with the CD to get it to gel.

I don’t like to practice in front of a computer, so I wanted an alternative to programs like the Amazing Slowdowner. A couple of months ago I picked up one of the Tascam (CDGT1mkII) Guitar trainers. You pop a CD in it and adjust the tempo without changing the pitch, as do the software versions. I am telling you, it’s one of the best investments I have made. The sound quality is much better than the software versions. It doesn’t come with speakers, so I plug an old set of powered computer speakers into it.

Not only am I learning a new piece “note for note”, I am internalizing it at the same time. For really hard passages, I am still writing it out in tab, just to get the mechanics down and then get right back to the player to get the timing and nuances. Personally, I hate learning off tab. It seems like it takes forever and is boring as hell. When I pick it off a CD, I usually have the mechanics down in minutes versus hours with the bonus of getting the feeling down at the same time.

I have read on this and other forums, why players just don’t seem to sound “flamenco”. I think this is a major problem learning from tab. Oh you may have it “note for note”, but the most important ingredient, the feeling, will never be there. We have all been impressed how “flamenco” Ron M sounds. Ron has said it many times that he doesn’t read tab, he just plays what he hears.

Pat

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 15 2005 22:06:29

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

Tab is just a road map, and an incomplete and usually error-filled one at that. True musicianship springs, as you said, from the ears, not the eyes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 15 2005 22:14:34

de Almeida

Posts: 10
Joined: Jan. 8 2005

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

using both tab or notation and the music recording will put you in the best position, I think

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2005 7:03:13

Guest

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

I totally and 100% agree with Patrick. I think that MANY players use way to much time with tabs, and that their playing sounds like that.

What Patrick describes, I find to be a lot faster and it gives me a musical understanding that I don't get from paper. I prefer to play music with my ears and not with my eyes.
I want to say though that I never learn things the same way as the original. I cheat a little bit, which could also be called to be creative. When I've learned the basics, I might change a frase so that it fits me and my playing style.

I was a classical trained violinist way back, so I know very well what paper music is, but in music like flamenco, it doesn't convince me.

The listening thing has one backdraw (as does 95% of the tabs) It doesnt tell you the chords we are playing within. Flamenco is played very much within chords and fixed positions with one or two fingers locked. The best is a good video (digital) recording. It's the closest we get to old fashion learning.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2005 7:28:59

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

Nothing wrong with Tab. I have learned a lot from Faucher's excellent transcriptions.

Your ear, tab, standard notation, Amazing SlowDowner, a Video, even GERARDO NUNEZ sitting right in front of you showing you where and how to put your fingers, are all simply TOOLS for learning. Any tool can be good or bad depending on how you use it. Ultimately it is up to YOU to pick up on the details and understand what is going on...how to feel it and make it yours.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2005 18:59:43

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Ricardo)

Yup Ricardo,
By hook or by crook...any way you can pick up crumbs here and there of this stuff...
Even £9.7 Million won't guarantee to make you even a mediocre player.
It's all up to you and how much you want to go into this.
I'm still working on stuff Rafael showed me three years ago.
This is a lifelong journey.
And I believe that it's not that much different for the Andalucian Flamencos, except that they get exposed to it from a much earlier age and the really dedicated ones get involved professionally in their late teens or twenties, so they can earn a modest living without having to work for some Company from 9 till 6.
So they kinda tend to get better at it as time goes by..

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2005 20:09:21

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

quote:

Nothing wrong with Tab. I have learned a lot from Faucher's excellent transcriptions.

As have I. I'm not saying don't use it, I'm just saying don't get “hooked” on using it in lieu of all the other tools.

Richard, I would have to guess that in your case, you likely haven’t picked up a Faucher transcription cold and tried to learn it. My guess is you have listened to the piece many, many times. In fact I would venture to believe you have picked off a lot by ear and validated it by tab.

The point I am trying to make is I hear so many players grinding away with tab only and can't understand why it doesn’t sound right, treating flamenco as classical music. We don’t have the luxury of being surrounded by this stuff as a kid to internalize it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2005 21:01:40

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

When I first became interested in Flamenco, there was nothing.
I really mean it...absolutely nothing at all, save maybe something on the back of an LP cover.
Now Flamenco teaching is really becoming a small industry!
There are Videos, DVDs, Books, Tabs...everything you could ask for.
Everything is shown to us in complete detail by the masters themselves, right up close.
That's what the modern world is about now IMO.
Enter your Credit Card details and have Instant gratification

But I just can't absorb it at that level....it's just too much for me to take in!
So I just concentrate on the bits I like and fool around on the guitar doing little things that please me !
I suppose if I had a dream then it would be to live in Jerez and be able to attend some casual juergas and fill in some chords as second guitarist accompanying a good singer.
But I tend to agree with Pat here that some kinda written "road map" or fast track course to all the ins and outs of Flamenco, is complete hogwash.
A bit like working one's way through the 1960's Josh White's book... "How to Play Blues Guitar", will suddenly turn a Northern European into a great Delta Blues player by the time he finishes the exercises in the book.
You know what I'm trying to say?....

cheers

Ron

PS By the way, there is a great 15 min bio serialisation of Jimi Hendrix on BBC Radio 4 in the mornings this week.
Apparently his father didn't like him to do anything left handed, 'cos he thought it was bad luck and a sign of the Devil.
So Jimi when he was young, would play a normally strung guitar left handed and flip it over any time his old man came into the room...
So he ended up being able to play both ways...

(In fact...just to show you what a nice guy I am, even though my bedtime is long overdue, I searched out the BBC website where you can listen to the whole story...)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/arts/book_of_the_week.shtml

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2005 21:58:47

Guest

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

Pat wrote:

quote:

The point I am trying to make is I hear so many players grinding away with tab only and can't understand why it doesn’t sound right, treating flamenco as classical music. We don’t have the luxury of being surrounded by this stuff as a kid to internalize it.

I understood your first post like this, and I can only say that I fully agree. Everything helps, but in the end the ear and if you can see someone play in front of you or on your screen is what works the fastest. IMO.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2005 7:59:58

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

I think using tabs is not bad. You get new ideas much faster than with ear, coz without seeing it you would never know some crazy chords or fingerings.
For old stuff, it would be better to use the ear, coz you learn many positions of playing a falseta whilel searching the right way. With a tab you know the right way immediately, but dont see the variations. Its better to hear something out if you want to compose your own stuff in future.
When you hear somebody playing a falseta very bad which he learned from a tab. Than he is a bad player, but he would also play it bad if he would have used his ear to learn it. A good player can also play tabed stuff very good.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2005 10:49:51

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

quote:

A good player can also play tabed stuff very good.

Yes he sure can, but will it sound flamenco? Maybe yes, maybe no.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2005 16:28:17

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

There tabs that are wrong or have mistakes. But you can learn stuff "wrong" with your ear too. I have students who come back the next week with with something totally different than what I had showed them. We each have developed our musical ears differently. Just because someone uses tab ONLY, doesn't mean they will sound classical. Why does one pick up a tab anyway? Most likely because they HEARD a piece of music and wanted to learn it. You can use your EAR to learn a piece by Paco de Lucia, but I will promise you that no matter how many details you try to pick up, you will never BE playing it like Paco. But that is ok. Same thing if someone plays from a score and has their own different sound. It is ok.

The only thing that is NOT ok, is you learn something that is meant to be rhythmical, and you don't feel the compas. It is really hard to do with your ear, and many transcriptions have mistakes, and many teachers have trouble making students feel the rhythm. Just because you can play along to a CD does not mean you can feel it on your own with real palmeros or whatever. In the end, no matter how you learn it, you have to feel it for yourself.

I learned this falseta from a tab made by Conrad, who posts on here every once in a while. I have also the recording (Duquende's Samaruco) and a video (Francisco Sanchez DVD), but the final version is very much my own. I picked up a lot of details with my ear, but without that initial Tab, I would have nothing. In the end I had to work on my own with Palmas to get the feel. It did not matter that I could play along with the CD, I did not really understand it until I could do it on my own. It took, like, all day!

http://michaelk101.com/todd/toddmp3/Ricardopdlslow.wmv

http://michaelk101.com/todd/toddmp3/Ricardopdlfast.wmv

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2005 17:59:17

leo

Posts: 61
Joined: Aug. 2 2005

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

i realy like the video of the buleria
i can see you have a good technique and you produce a clean sound
i wanted to ask you
how did you do the palmas in the background is it a computer software that
helps you stay in the compas ??

how can i get it??
thanks

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2005 18:36:11

Guest

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo,

Very nice and relaxed bulería

I don't think it's so much about using tabs or not. It's more about how to use them. I've seen it so many times, that someone is staying way to long with a tab in order to learn a falseta, and when you ask about the listening part, oh , this they haven't really done. IMHO tabs should only be used as a roadmap. Never forget to look out the window (listen) And remember, that the chords or the fixed positions are normally never written down in the tabs.

Another thing is that tabs, more or less means falsetas and more falsetas and then a falseta. That's another error, that many players only learn falsetas and not all the rest, WHICH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT!!!!!!! Compás, fill ins etc. This is almost impossible to find on tabs.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2005 10:06:25

el ted

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

Leo,
I watched Ricardo's video ( I can't hear it though... no speakers) and I noticed a chap doing palmas in the top left of the picture. Does that answer your question? Have a closer look.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2005 10:44:25

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

quote:

Personally I think many of us spend too much time with tabs.

Hello Pat;

You use whatever works for you. I have created over 2000 tabs of flamenco chording compas, llamadas, falsetas, beginings, endings, transitions, and complete pieces. It is good to have variety and alternative ways to play something. After playing flamenco for over 45 years I cannot remember every variation I once knew but I have tabs for everything I can remember.

At least my tabs provide me with a way to record what I knew or know, as may be the case. I can also share with others. I give my student’s tabs to remember a lesson and find their own variations. A tab is nothing more than a road map. When you learn only by ear you are likely to forget something if not right away then over the years. Then you can ask yourself, how did that variation go? Well, that aural variation you heard is somewhere in the air along with Abraham Lincoln’s voice.

Let me give you an idea of what I am talking about. Within my Bulerias Handbook you will find:

1. Chording compas - 40 examples
2. 6 count – 18 examples
3. 12 count 8 examples
4. Introduction in A Phrygian
5. Bulerias Al golpe in A minor (2)
6. Falsetas in A minor
7. Falseta A Major
8. Endings in A Phrygian
9. Endings in A minor
10. Endings in A Major

And much more.

Then I teach the student how to “build a Bulerias” from the different parts. You see there is no one way to do anything. How much of this material could a student remember over a period of time? This way you have a reference, which you can use to your own advantage.

I have learned much by listening and watching. If you can do both at the same time you will learn a great deal. Then I create a tab based upon what I have heard. The tab enables me to provide the fingering as well as to modify what I am playing.

Variations make flamenco more interesting. It is good to have a starting point and build upon it.

I know a fellow who plays flamenco guitar that has a friend who plays classical guitar. He claims his friend (who reads notation) can sight read Sabicas pieces and play them with full feeling. Somehow I doubt that but then again who knows?

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2005 1:24:48

el ted

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

Without cifra/tab/standard notation, traditional music cannot pass from one generation to another in it's original form. Word of mouth, and learning from your peers will always incorporate their interperatation resulting in a hybrid music.
We would not have a clear idea of what Mozart/Haydn/Beethoven etc originally wrote if their music was simply passed through the generations by ear.
Cheers from sunny Hull. (recently voted worst place to in England by Channel 4)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2005 8:01:22

DavidT

Posts: 181
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)

Hi Tom,

I believe all of us are very grateful for what you're done for the Flamenco lovers who wants to learn to play Flamenco guitar. I'm sure one of them.

Thank you
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2005 18:38:34

Chris Downing

Posts: 2
Joined: Aug. 22 2005

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

By the way guys you can slow down CD's by loading them into the library of MS Media Player version 9 or 10 and just slowing them down in the playback options - no need to spend £150 on Tascoms little box - although it obviously does a whole lot more than your PC - but it's a way to listen to CDs slower for no outlay.

_____________________________

Well it ain't the blues that's for sure!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2005 15:52:06

Chris Downing

Posts: 2
Joined: Aug. 22 2005

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo - Is that a cajon in the background? Sounds like it.

_____________________________

Well it ain't the blues that's for sure!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2005 15:59:02

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: To Ta(B) or not to Ta(B), That i... (in reply to Patrick)

quote:

no need to spend £150 on Tascoms little box - although it obviously does a whole lot more than your PC - but it's a way to listen to CDs slower for no outlay.

I think most of us are aware of that. As I said, I don't like playing in front of a computer, thus the Tascam unit.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2005 18:42:00