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More Conde Hermanos
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Patrick
Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon
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 RE: More Conde Hermanos (in reply to flyeogh)
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I'm not in any way trying to start a war, but personally I take a bit (no make that a bunch) of exception to Doitsujin's statement. Basically what he is saying is its reprehensible for anyone other than top professional players to even consider owning a world-class guitar. It almost reeks of ethics as though my owning a high-end guitar will take something away from a more deserving guitarist. Well I'm sorry, but that's just doesn't cut it with me.
Personally I have busted my butt all my life, doing without so the family gets what they need and deserve. I'm no kid anymore and I'm not getting any younger. I am finally in a financial position to enjoy a bit of the fruits of my labor. Yes I own a couple of world-class guitars (a Green blanca and a DeVoe negra) that I certainly don't need at my level of playing, but I take offense when someone says I may not be deserving of such fine instruments.
Have I taken anything away from anyone? Call up Aaron Green and Lester DeVoe and ask them. They were more than happy to build the guitars of my dreams. They could have said "Oh I'm sorry, I only build guitars for known players". With that attitude how long do you think they would remain in business? And oh by the way, don't kid yourself, building guitars is a business.
To take this further, anyone that buys a BMW or Mercedes is morally and ethically challenged. Heck, a Honda will get you down the same street for a lot less money. I don’t think we want to go down this road (pun intended). So now I have to sell my nice beautiful home as well, or better yet donate it to someone that really deserves it more. After all its just shelter, I can move my family into the cave I saw the other day.
Doitsujin, I’m not trying to bust your chops (a US saying) buddy, but the real world just isn’t Pollyanna and roses.
Pat
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Date Aug. 3 2005 18:57:07
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Mark2
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: More Conde Hermanos (in reply to flyeogh)
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I'm not sure that Doitsujin was saying only good/great players should own these expensive guitars-I think what he was saying what that no one should pay more than 2000 or so for a great flamenco guitar-and I happen to agree. Of course, if you want a devoe, or some other name guitar, and you go to the builder and have it made to your specs, it's going to cost plenty. but it's also true that professional players have contacts the average guy doesn't. they know many other pros, and many pros flip instruments a lot. Deals can be had. Opportunities arise, and great guitars are sold for 2000 or even less. I have no problem with a person who decides to reward themself with a 5000 guitar, no matter how they play. Or a mercedes, etc. Heck, I spent close to 3k for a prs last year and have only played it a few times. But I'm a lefty, and there are only a few of them to be had. I'd have a hard time paying more than 2-3 k for any flamenco guitar, unless it had perhaps some historical value.
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Date Aug. 3 2005 20:01:48
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Patrick
Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon
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RE: More Conde Hermanos (in reply to flyeogh)
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Mark2,
Sorry, but I still don't agree. I have played (and owned) a bunch of flamenco guitars in the $2,000 to $3,000 range and I have never (repeat never) played or heard any of them that came even remotely close to my Green and DeVoe. A lot of intangibles come in when you step up to that level of guitar that many players just aren’t aware of or can appreciate and it isn't always tone. For instance, when I had the two built I had the actions set just the way I wanted them. They both nailed it. They both play effortlessly.
So if the question is, "can you get a world-class guitar for $2,000 to $3,000" that's one thing. But if it's "you are a fool for paying more" than that's a whole different issue. I would be the first to step up to the plate and put down my $2,000 for the Holy Grail of guitars, but I'm not holding my breath.
Pat
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Date Aug. 3 2005 20:20:36
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: More Conde Hermanos (in reply to flyeogh)
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Guys,
I just got back from helping my friend Miguel Rodriguez play my gig. He's subbing for me because of my finger thing. He had a Yamaha for his gig guitar! He said he had to file down the frets to get it to play right. It was pretty good, man! He said he had two of them and he would sell me the other for $150! That's a pretty good deal...
On the other hand, when I bought Patricks' Tezanos, ahem..I mean as I am buying Patrick's Tezanos, there really is a difference. This damn guitar plays like butter, and the notes pretty much jump right off the soundboard. When you fret it, you don't really push down the string, you just touch it. It's a Mercedes. I don't care how many Fords you sift through, none of them are going to be Mercedes.
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Date Aug. 4 2005 0:13:06
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Guest
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RE: More Conde Hermanos (in reply to flyeogh)
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Well, I posted this on the other Conde thread. I post it here as well, because, I think you are forgetting that there are people working behind the guitars.
I also uploaded a photo on the other thread, something I cant do on this one.
Well my prices will go above 2000 euros very soon, and they will still be very cheap. It's so easy to say frases like "paying more than 2000 for a guitar is a waste of money" but reality is different and peolpe saying these things just show me that they know very little about the world, and that they forget that good guitars are made by people and not by machines, people that have to live in modern society as well as everyone else.
A normal output of handbuild guitars is around 12 a year.
I now leave it to everyone to calculate a normal income of a guitarbuilder. Remember that materials and workshop are expensive things.
You will always be able to find cheap guitars. Some even good, but people with the attitude like this one above, will play factory guitars and thats it. If you want something special and personal, and you think that it's worth keeping a traditional way of building alive, you have to respect that we, the builders also have to live.
And, the last thing. Remember that the factorys never invented anything. They only copy. The real work is been done in the small personal workshops. 
_____________________________
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Date Aug. 4 2005 8:34:32
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Guest
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RE: More Conde Hermanos (in reply to flyeogh)
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quote:
Guitars over 2000E are often perfect, but there are professional guitars for less money.
Very few, and things are changing a lot. Most of these guitars you mention are made here in Spain, and inflation is sky high. (16% in house prices last year) So be prepared, prices will keep going up very fast.
Guitars are still very cheap. Go to a pro symphony orchestra and ask everyone there how much they've payed for their instruments!!!!!!! You'll get a new Conde Hermanos for a Violin or Cello bow!!!!!
I will raise my prices to a little above 2000 euros this year, and they wil continue to raise. Why, because I have to live and also because in a guitarbuilder society like Spain, there's a limit of how long I can stay so cheap. The other builders (around 3000 euros is standard price) are starting to say things........ That's life and I understand. You can be cheap when you are new and unknown, but when you start having an order list etc. You have to follow the unwritten rules. It's always been like that.
What do you think would happen if I went to the market and sold tomatoes for 50 cents a kilo, when everyone was asking 1 euro a kilo? Well, they would probably start throwing tomatoes after me 
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Date Aug. 4 2005 10:35:25
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PacoPaella
Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 7 2004
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RE: More Conde Hermanos (in reply to flyeogh)
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dang,
Anders said exactly what i wanted to mention. When i picked up my Bellido and met Jose Bellido in his shop, i could see that he is really hard working to the extent that he has to deal with several physical problems by now, due to age and the systematic problems of hand building guitars. From what he told me, especially the french polish application procedure takes forever and he has to do this movement bending over a bit, massively hurting the lower back. He showed me the twelve guitars that he was working for half a year on, and planned to finish in the next six months (4xblanca 4xindian rosewood and 4xRio classical). So yes, a builder as experienced as Bellido does 12 guitars per year, plus some repairs and customization. Now, subtracting the rent of the manufacture, the tools, the material costs, the costs for storing the woods for ten or more years, and considering the excellent quality of his instruments, i dont think that 2000 euros would be an appropriate prize for his efforts. Yes i paid mre and i dont regret anything
On the other hand, i can understand Doitsujin's point. Since i couldnt pick up the guitar directly when i was in Granada, i took a Ferrer Guitar from their shop which is close to bellidos. Met Antonio Duran there, a guy who builds guitars with one arm...remarkable! The guitar was most likely not built by the master luthiers there but rather by some apprentice, but nevertheless its nicely done, the sound is lively and mucho flamenco, an indian rosewood that people in my guitar shop here loved...and it cost 1.000 euro. So, yes you CAN get lucky and find a good instrument. For me, i wouldnt notice any deficiencies with the cheap instrument ever, until i get to play it along with one excellent instrument. And from then on it would rotate in my mind endlessly that the music would sound a lot better with a better instrument. It was really only to silence this voice in my head that i bought a new guitar...
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Date Aug. 4 2005 12:10:06
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I thought the A26 Felipe was well regarded. 
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