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i have many friends who play classical guitars and in general , my impression is that they think flamenco guitarists are inferior to their skills, taste and also inferior quality of their guitars. iam very furious at them as like treating flamenco players like some kind 3rd class citizens. when i talk about good guitars for flamenco they assume our guitars are cheap guitars which don't have good tonal quality at all and don't deserve good tuners at all.
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to erictjie)
That's complete BS of course!
However, I have a lot of respect for advanced classical players, it takes a lot of patience and diligence. Too bad they can't loosen up like flamenco players can LOL
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to erictjie)
Classical guitar music (save for a few exceptions like Barrios) bores me to tears. My initial attraction to flamenco was actually that it seemed like a punk rock version of classical guitar
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to erictjie)
A youngster of my family is a classical guitar student ( talented in learning fast and with rushing through an extensive repertoir, but not yet with staying and working out pieces ).
About two years ago he uttered quite the bias against flamenco as mentioned in the initial post above. Apparently what his teacher must have told him. That made me tell him of the opposite.
Last I checked he had discovered what flamenco actually is and had started to learn some.
It is unclear to me what could be behind the ignorance of some classical players towards flamenco. But I suspect envy on the virtuousity and on the arguable freedom in interpretation / improvisation of the genre.
Others might still be taking of Andres Segovia´s attitude. -
Anyway, all it takes is a good performance or record to make them actually listen and rethink.
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to erictjie)
quote:
i have many friends who play classical guitars and in general , my impression is that they think flamenco guitarists are inferior to their skills, taste and also inferior quality of their guitars. iam very furious at them as like treating flamenco players like some kind 3rd class citizens. when i talk about good guitars for flamenco they assume our guitars are cheap guitars which don't have good tonal quality at all and don't deserve good tuners at all.
well..., my experience is extacly the OPPOSITE!
here in Italy I have never met somebody (that was a student or a conservatory teacher, or a musician or prof guitarrist or a symple music lover ) thinking that flamenco guitarrists are inferior to classicals. And about the guitars quality, the common tought is that it is a matter of simply different costruction concepts applied to the same instrument, according with the different tecnique and sound connected with the more speed and percussive aspects involved in flamenco guitar palyng because the special connection with baile and cante.
It is a matter of fact that I by myself, come from a little classical experience. ..but where do you live? :-)
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to erictjie)
quote:
The question is who cares. We flamenco guitarists..know that we are good. So we dont have to wine. Just do your thing.
eso es!!
I can understand why they think flamenco is inferior (because they think the way they execute their techniques looks gracious and music for the high-class people and all that BS) , but if you care to show them that flamenco kicks ass, show them some kickass videos of the Maestros and the great guitarists of the young generation, then let them put their BS aside.
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to erictjie)
What I think is funny is that there is so much classicial guitar music based on flamenco "sound" and it is watered down. I always wince when a classical player can't perform a gutsy well intentioned rasgueado in a piece that is imitative of flamenco guitar.
But it does not stop there, many pieces in the 19th century violin repertoire were based on Gypsy fiddling in Eastern Europe. They "cleaned up" the melody and added Western harmony to the accompaniment parts in the orchestra or ensemble. You can hear it as far back as in Haydn string quartets. If you get a gutsy violinist playing it the origin shines through, but often you get a pallid version of some Gypsy violining. When composers like Shostakovich, Bartok and Kodaly came along and wrote more ruthlesselsy the stuff really works.
Most classical music up to mid twentieth century is based on a component of harmonized folk and vernacular music, well much of the time. Listen to the Kodaly Sonata for Unaccompanied Cello....finally does justice to where the sources are. Well except that ruthless 19th century mothers like Beethoven actually would drive the violinists wild by making the parts really asskickingly difficult. He made them work for that sound.
Segovia had the ego and mission of a concert solo violinist, but he had to say a lot of down talking stuff about folk music to separate himself from flamencos and be seen up in the violinist leagues. There are lots of reasons why Segovia had to separate himself that had to do with public perception of flamenco in Spain. He needed to be identified with Bach Beethoven and Brahms in order to have his career. I personally think that is why he played a German made guitar at one point; I think unconsciously he was drawing himself closer to being in the more accepted and dominant German/Austrian music tradition. His guitar was from the land of Mozart and Bach. The public took in Segovia's rap quite zealously and for much of the last part of the twentieth century really thought they had good taste for it. I think that stigma has run it's course and any good classical guitarist with two brain cells to rub together understands that top flamenco players are substantive hard working high level musicians on par with the best violinists.
If a classical guitar student or mid level or advanced player gives a flamenco student a hard time, that flamenco person should just roll their eyes at the poor misinformed beast. Just remember the primary source material for much of the Iberian sounding classical guitar pieces is "borrowed" without much credit from flamenco and other forms.
Also show me classical guitarist who has an alzapua worth a turd. If they do it's because they worked on flamenco and they know how difficult it is to play well.
The thing is look all through any part of classical music and you'll find many influences. They did not invent it all, with the exception of the great symphonists who developed the possibilties in orchestras of that enormous envelope of sound, you find much that is in chamber music is taken from native and vernacular sources. So don't be angry o dismayed by classical guitarists, just be smarter, study deeper and don't worry about that old tired canard of classical guitar higher majesty.
And lastly, when you find a good classical guitarist it is sheer delight to listen, right?
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to erictjie)
Hi Eric,
I think many of them give that impression because they don't know much/anything about flamenco. Frankly I think it scares some of them. Like you, and probs a bunch of others here, I am a member of a CG forum, you know the one, and have to admit that most of my experience and training is in that sphere but there is still room for flamenco. Many of the guys over there only seem interested in showing off the new mega $$ acquisition and often I wonder if they can play much more than 'Romanza' on it. I think the old Segovia (a.k.a. old sausage fingers) quote of him "having rescued the guitar from the noisy hands of the gypsies" is all they know. I honestly wonder if some of them know he is dead but sshhhh... that's our little secret. Don't spend your time worrying about them.
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to erictjie)
Take a listen to Pepe Romero, Scott Tennant, Dennis Koster and our own Grisha among others. I can also name several younger generation classical guitarists who incorporate flamenco into their recordings and programs (e.g., Rafael Aguirre who plays the hell out of Guajiras de Lucia comes to mind). I think this comparison at the highest level is passe.
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to erictjie)
Flamenco players should not care about what classical players think about their flamenco playing, about flamenco guitars or compositions. Im not really upset or anything if somebody who doesnt know flamenco, smacks it down/ talks bad about it. It doesnt touché me, to say it in french .
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to Don Dionisio)
quote:
Take a listen to Pepe Romero, Scott Tennant, Dennis Koster and our own Grisha among others.
I watched a video on YouTube of Pepe Romero playing a buleria (IIRC). It didn't seem like his rhythm was very good and this seems to be the case with classical guitarists who delve into flamenco--as well as jazz, rock, etc. They don't develop the proper rhythm (and ability to swing) required to play some of the flamenco palos.
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to erictjie)
quote:
have many friends who play classical guitars and in general , my impression is that they think flamenco guitarists are inferior to their skills, taste and also inferior quality of their guitars.
not all classical players think like that, if they do its simply cause of lack of exposure to it or ignorance... i did a gig where i was playing bulerias and i noticed Eliot Fisk was closing his eyes and kind of moving to it, i was shocked, i was nervous that he was in the room ...hes like this famous classical guitarist (also Grishas teacher) but his passion and love for music and the way he absorbs was an absolute surprise and inspiration to me
when listening hes not like the world renowned guitarist that has heard it all and can probably do it all, hes more like the little kid whos never heard it before and wants to hear it all and experience it all and take as much as he can out of every song...kind of nothing else exists but the song
so one of my most inspirational moments and lesson on how to try to be as a listener came from a classical guitarist
its a rare thing for a guitarist when listening to another guitarist to forget everything they know and forget about technique and just hear music...its like George Lucas getting absorbed into Star Wars and not seeing believable or unbelievable special effects but a movie he can lose himself in
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to erictjie)
This is an old conflict that's been going on for over 100 years. What's interesting about Segovia is that on one hand he said flamenco was "noisy music" but on the other stated, in the 1930's, that "Manolo de Huelva is the greatest living guitarist" Before he passed away Ron Purcell, who studied with Segovia, told me that Segovia was really good at playing flamenco. It would seem that Mr. Segovia was at odds with himself. The author of the 1st written flamenco guitar method, Rafael Marin was also a really good classical player. In fact there's a long history of Spanish guitar players that played both flamenco & classical going all the way back to Julian Arcas. Rumor has it that Arcas and Torres met at a Juerga! With the publication of method books like the flamenco Classical Guitar Tradition and guitarists like Scott Tennant playing both forms perhaps this ridiculous and unnecessary conflict between classical & flamenco players is finally starting to end.
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From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
ORIGINAL: rumbaking
Sorry to disappoint any other genre of guitarists out there...but there is no other guitar music as advanced and complex as Flamenco.....We all know Flamenco has techniques that no other music has not to mention the complex ritmos and contratiempos.
I personally don't like classical guitar, i can't do anything with it. But i wouldn't say its not as advanced and complex as flamenco. It is , but in other ways.
Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
Sorry to disappoint any other genre of guitarists out there...but there is no other guitar music as advanced and complex as Flamenco.....
I take a back seat to no one in my love and appreciation of flamenco. Nevertheless, the statement that "there is no other guitar music as advanced and complex as flamenco" would never hold up to scrutiny. Classical guitar is just as (and in some cases, perhaps more) complex as flamenco. As for your use of the term "advanced," what do you mean flamenco is more "advanced" than classical, jazz, or any other guitar music? Define your use of the term "advanced," and why flamenco is more "advanced" than other genres.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to Guest)
Whatever rumbaking, most of your points are either arguable or plain wrong. I would argue with you but you're just as bad as the idiots who think that flamenco is inferior to classical guitar. I suggest you study up a bit before you begin to make judgments.
quote:
I love Flamenco and not classical...
Why not both? Why does one have to be better than the other? Most importantly - why do you need to feel that whatever it is that you like is better than the rest?
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to chester)
quote:
Why not both? Why does one have to be better than the other? Most importantly - why do you need to feel that whatever it is that you like is better than the rest?
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to Estevan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Estevan Which is more advanced, apples or oranges?
Where does that leave potatoes? Carrots? Pomegranates?
Well oranges have a more advanced peel, but the crunch of an apple is more complex.
Carrots are far superior to potatoes and pomegranates are a whole other animal. I can't believe you even put pomegranates in the same category as carrots and potatoes. Are you mental? What's next? Peas and lettuce?
RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to erictjie)
..to each their own. preference can not be measured and no math can be done on that to determine which is superior.
as we all know, flamenco is very complex, but i don't know how its complexity compares with classical. I like both flamenco and classical but I can not stand listening to the same thing twice in classical as it puts me to sleep the second time i hear it, but its not the case with flamenco for me atleast.
even if flamenco was the most complex music, it does not mean that flamenco is superior, right?
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