pumice and sanding sealer

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El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

pumice and sanding sealer

Greetings.

I think I may have jumped the gun here and would welcome some advice. I've seen some of the discussions re detailed methods etc but I think my question is maybe more fundamental(!).

I have bought some Rustins Sanding Sealer, which it emerges is basically shellac, alcohol and a 'special additive' to facilitate sanding, to seal whatever needs sealing. As my bridge is quite open pored I wanted to seal it before any further treatment and thought this would be fine, also good for the rosewood head veneer, the rosette and cedar neck.

But now I'm wondering how, if at all, it is different from normal shellac used in French Polishing. For THAT job I have bought Liberon French polish that can be applied by brush. Have I bought essentially the same thing twice? I can't see the ingredient proportions in either product.

I also am now wondering if pore filling is a separate stage to sealing. Should I buy pumice to do pore filling in addition to/or in place of the sanding sealer?

Also, as a supplementary, could I apply the 'Easy' french polish using a rubber?

I guess all of this seems a little unrefined, but I am on the nursery slopes of making! Thanks for any contributions and apologies for all the questions.

El Burdo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2011 13:10:10

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to El Burdo)

I would assume the sanding sealer is Just a diluted version of shellac. I use a diluted mix of shellac to seal the grain. So effectively yes you have just bought the same thing twice.

When it comes to grain filling it is not the same thing as sealing and can take some considerable time and effort to do. Pumice is usually used for this job too. Also you will need alcohol and a rubber do this job.

If you have alcohol I think you could use the rubber method for applying the fp. If you dont have alcohol it might get a little sticky and difficult to apply.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2011 12:49:34

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Thanks. I've always got alcohol

. The viscosity of the two shellac solutions is quite different, though both in alcohol. For the sealer it is quite thick and for the brush-on stuff it's thin. I'll look for pumice application methods. Thanks for the clarification. The bridge is really very open pored and quite veinous though it is Madagascan rosewood I think. Should I use the sealer to build up a surface after the pumice and before the french polishing final coats?

Jeff.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2011 13:56:23

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to El Burdo)

French Polishing Tutorial
www.milburnguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2011 15:12:38

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to C. Vega)

That's great. Very exhaustive, thanks Mr. Vega.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2011 16:01:08

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

Also, as a supplementary, could I apply the 'Easy' french polish using a rubber

I use a proprietory sanding sealer which I buy from Rydenor (they are local ) It has the virtue that it does not impart any colour to the wood. And remember its for sanding so most of it is removed anyway.

For pore filling you will need pumice as Stephen says (just follow the tutorial)

And as for the so called 'Easy' FP (from Liberon?) Poor stuff, don't waste your time or money.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2011 7:32:31

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to krichards)

Hi.

Well, I've bought the pumice from a French Polisher and, as part of the package some Fuller's Earth came along with it - I'll check that out. The video above is excellent and I'll be following it closely.

However, my question is this - is Surgical Spirit of the type found in Boots appropriate for the alcohol? It is 95% Ethanol with some additional chemical I've forgotten which I guess is to inhibit people wanting to mix it with Tonic Water. I can't find alcohol in any of the Hardware stores I am aware of. I'm in London, UK.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2011 18:23:42

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to El Burdo)

You can use isopropynol and find it quite easily on the internet in the uk pretty easy. works a treat for french polishing. I was recommended to use it by someone before. it's fairly cheep and you dont have to buy loads of it either.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2011 19:07:02

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Thanks - I've found it on Amazon and ordered it. Great, this forum!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2011 19:59:34

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to krichards)

I'm going to try and make my own FP stuff from first principles having read the posts here and elsewhere.

Liberon seem to be the only people I can find selling shellac flakes (in UK). I assume shellac flakes are shellac flakes are... Would this be OK? I want a yellow/light gold colour - or more precisely, I don't want a natural/clear finish. would the Liberon Lemon shellac be OK for this (if indeed Liberon is OK anyway!)? I know Rustins sell prepared FP liquid. It's either this or clear or pretty brown (and I don't mean purty).

I have some Fuller's Earth as it came with my recent Pumice purchase - can I use it successfully in any preparation? I think it removes grease.

Thanks very much, again.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2012 23:14:14

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to El Burdo)

Shellack can be many different things. Depending on color, how clean it is and the amount of wax that it contains.
I dont know the brand you mention. I buy my flakes in Germany:
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/810031/Astra-shellac.htm

Just one note. For a beginner or not so experienced, its a lot easyer to polish with a clear shellack.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2012 6:52:09

kominak

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 20 2010

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I used light blonde shellac from LMI for my first build, thinking it wouldn't add any tone to the wood, but it turned out golden yellow (I'm happy it did - I like the color a lot, plus the back and top wood now have the same color).
Also, the DVD "French polishing for guitarmakers" helped a lot to clarify some steps in miburn tutorial.

quote:

I dont know the brand you mention. I buy my flakes in Germany:
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/810031/Astra-shellac.htm

I always wondered how you manage to make your blancas so white. Is it the quality of the shellac flakes?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2012 8:01:43

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to El Burdo)

This shellack is very pale.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2012 9:35:37

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to kominak)

quote:

I used light blonde shellac from LMI for my first build, thinking it wouldn't add any tone to the wood, but it turned out golden yellow

That's pretty different to the picture LMI give. Liberon don't give any shades. I like the depth and lustre of light gold.

quote:

For a beginner or not so experienced, its a lot easyer to polish with a clear shellack

Hi Anders - Is this to do with de-waxed shellac? Liberon only seem to offer de-waxed blonde shellac, others don't seem to be sold with the word 'de-waxed'.

Thanks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2012 10:20:16

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to El Burdo)

I think its more to do with how much color they´ve taken away from the "natural state" flakes.
The site in Germany offers 3 different colors and they are all dewaxed. The blonde one is bleached as well.
If you want to use darker shallacks. 2 things. I will advice you to seal and porefill with blonde and then you can continue with darker. The second thing is that you have to put A LOT of layers on before the darker ones start to look like they have color.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2012 12:07:27

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

I will advice you to seal and porefill with blonde

I wondered about that. It makes intuitive sense.

Sigh. I was hoping to get away with one purchase...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2012 14:10:46

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to El Burdo)

Well, you only need the bleached one.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2012 16:58:31

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to El Burdo)

I think the Milburn tutorial over complicates things. I've read it and yes it explains everything, but you can cut through most of it. It was written before we have the kinds of woven abrasives available now.

To practice filling with pumice, brush a couple of layers of shellac on a scrap of your bridge wood and let it dry 20 minutes. Then take the shellac and put it in another room so you don't even look at it. Then sprinkle pinch of pumice on the wood and take a wadded up piece of cotton cloth and dip it in alcohol. Rub the pumice into the wood pores until the alcohol partially dissolves the existing shellac on your scrap.

Lift the pad off the work!

Then let it dry again and level it with with sandpaper on a block.

Practice that a few days on different pieces of scrap and you'll figure it out yourself. French polishing is a learn by doing thing. If you do that much then other questions will come up and then someone can answer those.

In my opinion French polishing has become an overcomplicated thing. If you have right abrasives it is much faster process from the existing tutorials out there. Some things have been developed in the past few years that make the leveling go much faster.

Probably better to do your first guitar with all blonde, so you don't have to buy a bunch of colors.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2012 17:32:58

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to estebanana)

I'm a bit too fearful of leaving the Milburn tutorial at the moment, but I will do what you say with the bridge spare. I've got cuttings of all the wood and would be an idiot not to practise a bit. So...straight in, then.

I am going to take a risk with the FP though. Then report back.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2012 18:13:57

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

I'm a bit too fearful of leaving the Milburn tutorial at the moment, but I will do what you say with the bridge spare.

You should read it carefully. Then after you learn to French polish you'll have to forget 3/4ths of it. HA HA HA

The important thing in pore filling is to not add shellac, which the Milburns advise.

Practice on scraps for several days is my advice, but leave the fear behind.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2012 18:27:51

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to El Burdo)

I buy all my finishing products here
http://www.rydenor.co.uk/

sanding sealer, shellac flakes, shellac solvent/alcohol, pumice etc. They also have a good range of ready made french polishes and other finishes. All good quality.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2012 6:54:56

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: pumice and sanding sealer (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

quote:

I'm a bit too fearful of leaving the Milburn tutorial at the moment, but I will do what you say with the bridge spare.

You should read it carefully. Then after you learn to French polish you'll have to forget 3/4ths of it. HA HA HA

I totally agree. That tutorial is extremely brainy. French polishing is a very intuitive and organic process which is very difficult to explain, so I guess that the various tutorials are excused?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2012 7:36:13