Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes!

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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes!

You know, since the beginning of this year, I've been getting a bit fed up of listening to cool Flamenco...
I've been listening more to old stuff from Terremoto with Manuel Morao and in solo stuff, Paco Peña's debut album.
In fact I'm trying to learn some stuff off the album to practise with.
There is a lot of good solid stuff there, which is actually not dated at all IMO.
In feeling, musicality, rhythm and expression.
For more modern stuff I've revisited Rafael's CD "Mezquita"...
www.flamencoguitarist.co.uk
And I find I love it more than ever before....
I'm taking a holiday from the modern stuff for a while!

Anders playing that Fandangos just confirmed it to me.

That's what the fun in Flamenco Guitar is all about!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2005 20:40:35

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

I listen to older PDL with Camarón ,Paco peña and tomatito all the time.
And i love Terremoto de Jerez, i don´t know what guitarist played for him though.
I also enjoy a lot of Antonio Mairenas recordings with Melchor de Marchena
and also Agujetas. I admire Vicente amigo and Gerardo Nuñez but my first love will allways be the "older flamenco" Thats the sound i fell in love with from the first time i heard the music
in a small bar in Madrid. unfortunatly i don´t remember the name of the singer nor the guitarist.

Henrik

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2005 21:00:50

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

I'm the same way. When i was very young, i heard Sabicas/Ricardo
era, pretty much exclusively, with a little PDL mixed in more and more
as i got older.
But the original spark is definatly in the 50's and 60's stuff for me.

But it doesnt mean i dont absolutely love albums like Zyrab, or Barrio Negro.
That music is also very important to me, and affects how i play, no way
around it.

Hey, anybody remember Sanlucar's Flamenco Fantasy in Jazz?

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2005 21:33:04

Guest

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

Well, I think you can find good things in all styles. I mostly listen to old and semi old flamenco. These days it's Carmen Linares Anthology that's on my Cd player while I work. She has a great voice, and there is a bit of everything in styles. From Moraito to V. Amigo playing guitars. Most of it is really good.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2005 21:48:38

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron,
I hear you man. You know I got into this thing with PDL and then Vicente, etc.; but I find myself steadily moving "backwards." It does seem that for me, Paco Pena is a nice period that combines technical interest with the flamenco feeling that I enjoy.

Now, although I don't mean to be negative, there is something about the newer styles, a kind of "cooler than thou-ness" that I do not respond to. It's like you're supposed to be wearing sunglasses when you play. It reminds me of "modern art", those big splashes of red paint on a huge white canvas; or 20th century classical music. A bunch of dissonances with no discernable pattern. While I don't contend that these forms are without skill, they certainly don't interest me. I guess I'm just getting old. When you syncopate too much, you lose all the rhythmic interest. It becomes bossa nova, elevator music. But without the sunny, tropical feeling.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2005 17:31:40

gshaviv

Posts: 272
Joined: Mar. 22 2005
From: Israel

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

Took from blockbusters a DVD called Sabicas: El Maestro de Flamenco. Its 30 minutes of recordings of Sabicas playing solo, and two pieces of him accompanying baile, with the Maria Alba company. The guy is amazing, what a technique, and its just him, no percussion, no other add-ons, the guy doesn't need that to sound full and rich. Just to look at those fingers, what a pleasure! Its really old school flamenco and it sounds great.

_____________________________

Guy

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2005 18:02:24

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

Yeah man! I can watch Sabicas videos over and over and over,
and it always gets me.

That is "THE" sound..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2005 18:19:38

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

Todd,
how much of the sound is a combination of really projecting and getting 100% volume of the guitar, combined with total precision?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2005 18:23:20

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

I love the new stuff. I love those that dare to be different yet stay flamenco, those that have something new to offer or challenge your concept of the compas.
I gues it just depends what kind of mood youre in.

quote:

I think you can find good things in all styles

well said Anders

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2005 22:28:17

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Its hard to say. He has that look in his right hand, like Barrueco
where it looks like he's barely moving at all, yet the attack is
quite aggresive.

Its always tough to discern how loud somebody plays, unless you are
in the same room with them.

I think i remember Ron M. remarking that Serranito was extremely
quiet player. Wich struck me as odd, becuase on his records,
it sounds like he's really ripping the strings hard.

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2005 22:45:40

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

Todd,
interesting! You know I was getting into Serranito. One thing that kind of scared me was how hard he seemingly played. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought: If his guitar has a very thin top and projects like a mutha, and he keeps the action very low, maybe he could get that sound, too. Which makes me think--maybe I should get a vry thin top guitar which projects like a mutha, keep the action really low,, and fool people into thinking I play extremely aggressively!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2005 0:14:47

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

Ha ha!! You're a nut!

Ya know, ive noticed that shorter nails give me this effect.

I'm betting Serranito has very short nails too.

You can almost hear the flesh in his sound. Doesnt sound like
Sabicas or Paco at all.

Yet its one of my favorite sounds.

Hmmm, low tension strings, short nails, thin top.

You should do some expierements!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2005 1:27:25

Crows

Posts: 89
Joined: Sep. 27 2004

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

I found this post really interesting as it's something that I have been turning over in my mind for some time since reading another post/thread. I can't remember the other post exactly, it may even have been on FT, hopefully it wasn't a figment of my imagination - apologies for the vagueness!

Anyway, this other post. Someone was talking about not particularly liking a certain piece of music because it wasn't very complex harmonically. I though that comment was sort of symptomatic of lovers/players of a lot of new, 'cool' Flamenco, very detached and unemotional. My personal view is that a lot of the new music is technically advanced but so empty emotionally at the same time. A mammoth amount of playing technique and also production skills that can amount to candyfloss in the end (but if it rakes in some cash...). I suppose that time will tell how much of this material survives. Flamenco to me is about passion and intensity, and the old music has it in abundance. After listening to Mairena/Marchena, Paco/Fosforito etc the emptiness of some of the new music is shocking.

Andy.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2005 12:07:22

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

I guess flamenco means different things to different people at different times.

Nothing stays the same, you change your taste changes your views change.

To me flamenco is not a music genre anymore it has it's own genres and it just depends what you in the mood for, there's : Light stuff and there's heavy stuff and theres, old traditional stuff, and new modern (experimental)
I even have 2 cds with Flamenco trance music by B-tribe :-0, (that goes on when i have girls over

Oh yeah almost forghot and there's even good and bad flamenco, but that is flamenco.

Also us always disagreeing what flamenco is. that also is flamenco :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2005 12:55:38

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Florian)

Yeah Florian,
My listening mood shifts a lot as well.
There's a lot of good players playing good stuff out there.
For a long time I felt the world had moved on and that a lot of the pre Paco stuff was a bit long in the tooth and musically fairly naive.
But on revisiting it, I find there's a lot of energy and tone and feeling that I don't hear so much in cool/moody Flamenco.
In fact I find the naive-ness is half the charm of it actually. ..muy direct and in your face.

Todd/Mike... I've seen Serranito play several times in a small club environment which had no sound reinforcement.
Although I was at the front, he really did play quietly.
He played very clearly though, like a classical player, with each note very sharp and clean using a "free stroke" type picado in combination with thumb bass notes....you know the style I mean..where if you are looking at him straight on, you can only see the knuckles and middle joint of the fingers 'cos he's really pulling upwards on the strings with the fingers curled under.
When the dancers came on and he was joined by a couple of other guitarists you could hardly hear him at all except for pre arranged parts where everybody would stop for a bar or two and he'd solo with one of his long picado runs.
Actually, on the picado runs, he would screw up quite a lot, missing or fluffing notes here and there, but it still sounded great as it didn't interfere with the rhythm.
He's a great player with his own distinctive sound.
And a really pleasant and modest guy to speak to.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2005 13:44:05

antonio

Posts: 70
Joined: Jan. 10 2005
From: Portugal

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

I prefer the older stuff too. Anyway there is so much to learn there before moving on to more modern….
About what Duende said, I believe there are very good guitar players from this time who never recorded solo guitar music. Can someone please point some more?; or perhaps should I put this way ,what cantaores should I listen to ?
Thanks in advance
Antonio

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2005 15:06:14

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

David Cerreduela - Plays for ballet national and Antonio Canales, is probably just a matter of time.

ANd even tho hes played on some cds I am looking foward to a Paco Jarana solo cd.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2005 15:52:23

aloysius

Posts: 233
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
From: Adelaide, Australia

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Florian)

Well said Florian, Both of these are very modern players and yet have just as much intensity, power, strength, duende etc. in their playing as any of the players of old IMO. I would add to that list Diego del Morao, my favorite guitarist of all time right now (although who my favorite guitarist is tends to change from week to week).

One thing that struck me in Spain was the amount of mutual respect I saw between modern and traditional players. I went to see Paco Cepero accompany Rancapino once in a pena in Jerez, both very traditional, and there were young guitarists I knew in the audience of the ultra-modern Canizares - style school of playing, having a great time. Conversely I've met guitarists of the Melchor de Marchena style profess great admiration for some modern players.
- Aloysius

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www.guitarsketches.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2005 4:03:52

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

Alo...
I been doing some research this are all brilliant guitarists who dont have a solo album yet i dont think :

David Cerreduela Hernández
Francisco Franco Fernández (paco jarana)
José Carbonell Muñoz (Montoyita)
Antón Jiménez Escudero (Antón Jiménez)
Manuel Fernández Gálvez (Manuel Parrilla)
Juan Antonio Salazar
Jesús de Rosario
Mario Montoya

But i could be wrong mibe one of them might have a solo album that i have missed if so please inform me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2005 14:11:09

antonio

Posts: 70
Joined: Jan. 10 2005
From: Portugal

RE: Ch.. ch... ch.... Changes! (in reply to Ron.M)

Florian and Aloysius
Thanks a lot for the list: I will keep it for future use.
Perhaps someone could post also a similar and more extensive list of guitar players of the older style( or perhaps the singers they accompanied) .

Thanks again
Antonio

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2005 9:40:16