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Palo Toque what's the difference?
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 Palo Toque what's the difference?
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Forgive my ignorance. But it's a jargon minefield in the Flamenco world
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 28 2003 14:18:08
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Guest
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RE: Palo Toque what's the difference? (in reply to Guest)
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And here all the time I thought flamenco was the pink bird on my friend's front lawn.
Hey Stella! Ya wanna go to da cafe and watch da flamingo dancers tonight???
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 30 2003 16:42:11
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Palo Toque what's the difference? (in reply to Phil)
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Like so many things in life, the difference is hard to explain but easy to tell once you know.
Toque is a noun which is the counterpart of cante (singing) and baile (dance). You might speak of the toque of Jerez or of Paco de Lucía or a toque por soleá, but never would the term be used to refer to a performance with cante and/or baile...unless you were specifically talking about the guitar-playing.
The first time I heard the word palo I'd been living in Utrera for several years when around 1974, while working in a group with Carmen Linares she kept saying palo this and palo that. At that time she'd mostly sung Spanish lyrical music, de Falla and similar things, very little flamenco, but she'd grown up in Madrid and the flamenco people she knew were saying 'palo'...at that point in Andalucía no one I knew was using it.
It took some time for the word to catch on, and even now people of my generation are reluctant to use it. Aside from flamenco, a palo is sort of a set of characteristics, so while it's appropriate to speak of the palo of soleá for example, you wouldn't want to say the "palo" of serranas, caracoles, farruca or any of the other "dead" cantes which are not forms but rather set ditties so to speak.
Estela 'Zata'
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Date Sep. 2 2003 21:41:29
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Palo Toque what's the difference? (in reply to Guest)
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Andy, farruca’s dead’ern a doornail, but tangos de Piyayo has lots of verses and even two different formats. This Piyayo guy was kind of a recluse (read: bum) and he was famous for wandering around Málaga accompanying himself on guitar, singing freewheeling, somewhat formless verses about his exploits. Antonio Mairena however liked everything neat and orderly, so he reworked the Piyayo tangos to have 4 lines of 8 syllables, like most flamenco cante, at the same time making them a *lot* easier both to sing and accompany, but depriving them of much of their charm.
So today, there’s a handful of Mairena-style ‘neat’ Piyayo tangos, but older singers from Málaga, and in particular Juanito Valderrama, still sing the ‘epic’ verses. Tangos de Piyayo is also open to new verses, so in that sense it’s not dead and probably qualifies as a ‘palo’ (but just barely).
Estela ‘Zata’
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Sep. 3 2003 22:42:24
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Palo Toque what's the difference? (in reply to Phil)
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Good story about the Carapiera soleá  ...in the end that’s practically the only purpose served by being able to name different styles, to impress other flamencos  . It’s more important to distinguish one style from another...the actual name is neither here nor there most of the time. Even the great Torta from Jerez admitted to me that he can’t name any of the styles of siguiriya or soleá he sings, but nowadays his cante is considered to be among the most traditional in Jerez. Was that Carbonero giving the class? His generation (which is mine) was the first that had to deal with naming styles (thanks to Mairena), and not everyone can be bothered (like Torta can’t). I've also got a little anecdote about Carapiera...at a festival in Grenoble last fall I found myself sharing a pizza with Moraito and Fernando Terremoto...I know, it sounds ridiculous, but that's how it was. My head was spinning...I thought "ask them something relevant for chrissake!" I asked them about the soleá in major and they said, "yeah...that's Carapiera's"...I asked "who's Carapiera?" and the answer was: "some guy who used to sing that soleá". My mother was right...she always said "ask a stupid question and you get a stupid answer".
Dead cantes... yes, like marianas, caracoles, mirabra, serranas, livianas, farruca, caña, polo... I’m sure there are others. These are not forms but specific “songs” in a sense. Everyone sings the same verses and the same one or two melodies, and few singers would ‘dare’ to deviate from the norm. This is diametrically opposed to living, breathing ‘palos’ (like the Arabic ‘maqam’) such as soleá, siguiriya, tangos, bulerías, tientos...even the fandango family is in flux and absorbs creations.
Phil, will you be at the Fiesta de la Bulería? I’ll be at the Hostal San Andrés from Friday the 12th to Sunday the 14th, and at the bullring I’ll either be up front taking pictures, or wandering around the fried fish stand...in the seven hours the festival usually lasts we’re bound to run into each other  .
Estela ‘Zata’
quote:
What exactly do you mean by "dead cantes"? Do you mean that there are no individual styles or that the lyrics are always the same like "Marianas" for example?
BTW the way, thanks to you I made a little impression today during a group cante acompaniment class. We were talking about Soleas and the teacher mentioned that there is a form of Solea sung in Jerez in E major. He looked at me and said, "Felipe, you probably never heard of that before." I responded, "Oh, you're talking about the Solea de Carapiera." He didn't know that that is what it's called.
Phil
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Sep. 3 2003 23:03:43
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