RE: Rasgueo-Rest

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RE: Rasgueo-Rest

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Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Rasgueo-Rest (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogeliocan
I never knew Segovia was once young. I think he was holding is guitar like that because he knew that one day he would have no other choice ;)

Segovia was well into middle age when I became aware of him in my early teenage years. The many varied stories and legends of his life tend to agree however, that he was once young--and that in his youth he enjoyed flamenco.

In fact, as he got older his belly became rather formidable. This pushed the guitar away from his chest and his right forearm tended to rest more on the edge of the guitar. In his little book with Bobri he advised Bobri to counsel the students against getting fat.

Could it be that all classical players these days are resting their forearms on the edge of their guitars just because Segovia liked his dinner a little too well?

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2011 23:00:02

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Rasgueo-Rest (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

Much of this change requires rotation of the forearm at the elbow joint. Resting the forearm on the edge of the guitar inhibits this rotation.

Actually I have since years come to personal impression that about any technique will executed best with a howsoever subtle rotation of the forearm, as it reduces the required amount of individual fingers engagement.
Seeing Iznaloa play in a video for first time weeks ago, I noticed his arpeggio executed with a distinct rotation too ( with his ellbow rested ).

Your observation that resting would inhibit rotation is not true. I do it all the time.
The rotation ends up in very small movement near the ellbow, which will be easily taken by the tissues flexibility ( still with muscular arms ).

quote:

Now the wrist bends downward, instead of rightward. Still, for many players the stroke is not perfectly perpendicular, and virtuosos like Scott Tennant advise "ramping" the shape of the fingernails. Then we hear he has stopped doing it himself.

Wrist bending downwards( palm towards forearms flexors ) has good ergonomic reason. It supports execution within the fingers poise range / reducing active repositioning / hampering through active extensors. ( Paco Pena touts it since decades.)
Sideways however will empasize fingers deviation in length and enhance demand in compensation / active repositioning.

Questioning whether highly renowned artists could be stupid for lesser ergonomical technique won´t really help with exploring general physiological conditions.
Just as admirable performance mustn´t inevitably be equalling most efficient / ergonomical execution in the same time.

Further, lesser ergonomical posture / preparation at times can be helpful in individual situations like for temporary alteration / release / recovery after over strained playing situation. Yet, it won´t present a generally ergonomic approach, rather than a momentary relief.
Should we instruct a beginner to stick his RH pinky out, only because Paco de Lucia does it / can, despite, overcome such a hindrance?
Certainly not.

Besides, the way of resting the arm that you describe, because of the bouts slope will remain no true rest. It takes brest muscles, the latissimus and the shoulders to both press the arm laterally and lift it. Even if you might not notice the efforts due to habit.

Also, a forearm suspended by engagement of the upper arms muscles introduces not only constant demand to actively keep the hand in position, but also hampers the lower arms and hands muscular apparatus.

If you´re curious about how apparently remote body parts effect external limbs down to the finger tips, for an example try to focus on relaxing your neck before raising your arms to play and watch how magically right- and left hand cooperation can improve ( as long as you´ll keep the neck relaxed ).

Differences with flamenco and classical guitar unquestioned, principles like reducing movement / efforts to a required minimum remain useful for both, like with any art.
Accordingly, imperfect flamenco technique might show a lot of up and down movement of hand / forearm, while advanced technique will as much as possible reduce rotation to a rolling forearm, with the wrist actually showing relatively little of vertical movement.
( Advanced technique will also reduce individual fingers activity to a minimum, be it during whirls, rasgueados, arpeggios, picados, thumb techniques and what have you. Usually by said economy through upper limbs.)

Who knows, maybe one day I´ll discover to have been wrong, though quite doubting yet.
Until now however that popular "to each his own"- mantra, technique wise to me appears to be moonshine, as long as we´re talking average people whose physiology tends to be quite the same. Limbs proportions to each other, muscle / tendon connections etc. being outlayed in quite the same way, and thus their optimal coordination too.

Naturally, certain things will be harder or easier to execute for the individual player. However rather due do to motoric habits ( and their following detours) than to any immovable factor.
And as it commonly being all the same approaches / postures / preparations that abet further techniques, it shouldn´t hurt to recognize those and spare oneself superfluous efforts / paths of potential stagnation.

As an original autodidact dummy, I think to know in relative detail why notice and acceptance of general physical points could be of practical sense.
Correct and detailed envision ( if that´s a right expression ) is the key.
-

So, Richard, would you try such an armrest first, or keep dismissing it in advance like a mulish dromedary?

Just teasin´

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2011 18:38:18

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Rasgueo-Rest (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Besides, the way of resting the arm that you describe, because of the bouts slope will remain no true rest. It takes brest muscles, the latissimus and the shoulders to both press the arm laterally and lift it. Even if you might not notice the efforts due to habit.

Not at all. If the guitar were held as you describe, it would indeed cause problems. It has for many players. In the traditional position done right, however, the guitar is held with the neck pointing somewhat upward, so the inward slanting part of the side is horizontal. Then the guitar is held purely by the weight of the arm, not by muscular tension.

In the "Paco position" the arm indeed contacts the guitar on the curve of the lower bout. The waist is placed over the right leg, which is stabilized either by crossing the right ankle over the left knee, or by the leg resting against the chair. The angle of the arm and the pivot of the shoulder cause the weight of the arm to exert a slight force to the player's left on the guitar. This is balanced out by the reaction of the right leg against the waist of the guitar. Again, the weight of the arm is sufficient to hold the guitar without any muscular tension.

Is it reasonable to think that generations of virtuosi, each spending tens of thousands of hours, would not have arrived at an ergonomically efficient way of holding the guitar? There are at least three ways: the classical position, illustrated in numerous photos of Tarrega in the 19th century; the traditional flamenco position, illustrated in photos of Ramon Montoya and many others in the first part of the 20th century; and the "modern" flamenco position.

I put "modern" in quotes because Sargent's "El Jaleo", contemporary with Tarrega in the 19th century, gives a very accurate portrayal of how Paco holds the guitar.

quote:

Also, a forearm suspended by engagement of the upper arms muscles introduces not only constant demand to actively keep the hand in position, but also hampers the lower arms and hands muscular apparatus.

The upper side of the guitar is closer to the body than the lower, tilting the top slightly toward the ceiling. Thus a part of the weight of the forearm is directed toward the guitar top. This part of the weight lends more power to the action of the right hand.

Adopting the traditional flamenco position with my best classical guitar alters the sound radically by changing the action of the right hand from its classical version to flamenco. In picado, arpeggio, pulgar and alzapua it becomes a very good flamenco guitar. It is slightly less effective in rasgueados than my good flamencas.

quote:

If you´re curious about how apparently remote body parts effect external limbs down to the finger tips, for an example try to focus on relaxing your neck before raising your arms to play and watch how magically right- and left hand cooperation can improve ( as long as you´ll keep the neck relaxed ).

Any serious student of any instrument is aware of this effect.

quote:

Differences with flamenco and classical guitar unquestioned, principles like reducing movement / efforts to a required minimum remain useful for both, like with any art.

Accordingly, imperfect flamenco technique might show a lot of up and down movement of hand / forearm, while advanced technique will as much as possible reduce rotation to a rolling forearm, with the wrist actually showing relatively little of vertical movement.
( Advanced technique will also reduce individual fingers activity to a minimum, be it during whirls, rasgueados, arpeggios, picados, thumb techniques and what have you. Usually by said economy through upper limbs.)

Who knows, maybe one day I´ll discover to have been wrong, though quite doubting yet.

Until now however that popular "to each his own"- mantra, technique wise to me appears to be moonshine, as long as we´re talking average people whose physiology tends to be quite the same. Limbs proportions to each other, muscle / tendon connections etc. being outlayed in quite the same way, and thus their optimal coordination too.

Naturally, certain things will be harder or easier to execute for the individual player. However rather due do to motoric habits ( and their following detours) than to any immovable factor.
And as it commonly being all the same approaches / postures / preparations that abet further techniques, it shouldn´t hurt to recognize those and spare oneself superfluous efforts / paths of potential stagnation.

As an original autodidact dummy, I think to know in relative detail why notice and acceptance of general physical points could be of practical sense.

Correct and detailed envision ( if that´s a right expression ) is the key.

I'll steer clear of the subject next time I talk to Paco. He would be disappointed to learn he has wasted his life playing the guitar the wrong way.

quote:

So, Richard, would you try such an armrest first, or keep dismissing it in advance like a mulish dromedary?
Just teasin´

Ruphus

No thanks. I don't think I'll try an armrest. I don't experience any of the problems they are said to cure. It would just get in the way of classical technique, and it would make either flamenco position impossible..

RNJ

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2011 20:30:37

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Rasgueo-Rest (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Sorry Richard, but those who advocate this or that "ergonomic" sitting position, are usually the lucky ones never to have had any severe problems with guitar playing "for hours" as you say. My condition was not so, and guitar playing caused some changes in my body, which are only going to heal with lots of lots of muscle & flexibility training. There is no reason why there should be an ergonomic position for each individual. Sure everyone can find "his" optimum position, but whether this will or will not cause any health problems, we simply dont know that. Hence, in conclusion, i do not understand many of the negative opinions towards these gadgets, since they are just a tool, just as a footstool, or tabs or tuner or machine heads are. It seems that people project their whatever positive experience upon others, ignoring that we all have different physical conditions from which we depart on. FYI i do not use or advocate these rests or whatever (sometimes i use a footstool sometimes not), but i dont have a reason to assume that they are useless, just because I do not need them. In fact i dont even know if they are useful at all, it is up to everyone to decide for themselves, and only for themselves.

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2011 9:11:03

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Rasgueo-Rest (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Thank you, Richard, for explaining your estimation.

On a quick side-note: Any unbalanced positioning of the leg in sitting position potentially threatens the lower back over time.
Even with the slight tilt of the pelvis at the use of a footstool. Which is why it is recommendable to pull the right foot back to either beside the chair or under it, in order to help counter balancing / stabilizing.

What an extreme levering like with Paco´s way of sitting is concerned: Show a picture of it to an orthopedist and see what he will be saying.
( Aside of that I recall several players who used that position for a while until occuring back pain had them return to other postures.)

I have found standing position with a single centered suspension as most accomodating to both playing and body anyway.

Also thank you for the link to the very moody painting! ( I stored it.)

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2011 11:49:41

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Rasgueo-Rest (in reply to XXX)

Ruphus-you're welcome.

Deniz--sorry to hear about your guitar related problems. I hope they resolve successfully.

Striving for virtuosity on just about any instrument is a dangerous pursuit. And let's face it, lots of would-be flamenco guitarists want to play like Paco.

I'm not against the use of arm rests. I can see where they might be useful for classical players. Some very successful classical players use them in one form or another--though the great majority do not.

What I'm against is recommending classical technique for flamenco players. Few if any successful flamencos rest the right forearm on the edge of the guitar. Nowadays most successful classical players do. Successful flamencos change the position of the right hand radically for different techniques. Classical players work hard on playing everything from the same right hand position.

Personally, I think resting the forearm on the edge of the guitar tends to immobilize the right hand, and is counter productive to flamenco technique. If you don't rest your forearm on the edge, you don't need an arm rest.

I'm not saying you should never rest your forearm on the edge when you play the guitar. I do it most of the time when I play classical. I also hold the guitar very differently when I play classical, from how I hold it when I play flamenco. Tilting the top a little toward the ceiling reduces the pressure of the edge against the forearm, and has benefits for the left hand, too. But I'm getting pretty far OT here, talking about classical technique.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2011 22:00:54

michall

Posts: 77
Joined: Aug. 3 2007
From: Prague

RE: Rasgueo-Rest (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Ulalaa, what a discussion...
I just saw the fotos and i can say that the guys like gerardo paco etc they are about 170(tipycan spanish guy btw), and they just have diferent angle of whole hand/shoulder than person who have 190.

There is only one expeption of "tall" player with quality like paco and its vicente amigo but he have aleredy 2 surgeries of his back!!!

Anyway a just speak with the designer of the armrest and he said he will make me one but its question of months.
So i will post some review here maybe some video ok guys?

saludos!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2011 9:34:23

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Rasgueo-Rest (in reply to michall)

I'm 6' 4" (193 cm). I understand what you mean about a tall person's problem. It bothered me for a while until I found my solution, a footstool under the right foot. It is set at the lowest position. It raises the foot 4 1/2" (11.5 cm) from the floor.

A little lower would work as well, but I had the footstool around from playing classical.

I stopped using it for classical. The height I needed eventually put a strain on the lower back. Now for classical I use a Dynarette cushion with both feet flat on the floor. The slight elevation under the right foot for flamenco hasn't caused any problem over a few decades.

Of course, the classical footstool might not look cool for flamenco, but it didn't bother Sabicas. Late in his career he used a footstool to jack up his left leg higher than most classical players do, and he was a pretty short guy. Still, he held the guitar just as he always had, in the "traditional" position. There are photos of him with the footstool, but with the guitar not touching his left leg!

I never saw him play like this. When I was around him in New York in the early 1960s Sabicas wasn't using the footstool.

Good luck with the arm rest. I would be interested in hearing how it works. If you get around to posting videos I would certainly watch.

Do you rest your right forearm on the edge of the guitar?

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2011 19:07:04

michall

Posts: 77
Joined: Aug. 3 2007
From: Prague

RE: Rasgueo-Rest (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Thnx richard, i am forced to vary positions, now i can play all day long so something like 6/7 hours of playing so due to tension in my back i use classical position with right forearm resting on the edge and flamenco positions(including oldschool one).

cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2011 15:03:39

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Rasgueo-Rest (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Specially in sight of back problems, but also in general, I want to recommend to you playing upright with a soundhole hook harness.
( At the notion that a guitar centered by a single suspense ergonomically behaves basically different form a strapped one!)

While likely feeling strange at first you will discover that in opposition to the rather common approach of trying to fixate the instrument, a freely floating guitar actually supports playing the best, only improving certainty and interplay of the hands, and accomodating hands position changes. - And most remarkably introducing a sensation of how you vary length and impulse of the strings. It is like being much more engaged with the strings and lesser with the guitars body.

Also at first the standing position might bother your back even more than sitting, but you should be feeling the actual benefit very soon after only some days.

Not too long and you should find yourself standing for hours without getting tired ( and elated by the new grade of seamless playing), and as a plus whenever you switch to sitting position in between your body will be having a basic alteration / change of posture.

Most accomodating as I experienced it, would be to adjust the harness so that the soundholes upper round levels with the solar plexus, but that might slightly differ for you when exploring upright / harness condition.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2011 15:39:53