Improving a bad guitar .....

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El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

Improving a bad guitar .....

Learned people of the forum and those that work with wood and stuff...

Questions for you if you dont mind.
I have a second flamenco guitar that is , how can I put it , not of the best quality and I was thinking of experimenting a bit to try and compensate it to be a bit better, without a massive ammount of work ..
This guitar plays OK (feel) but is a bit quiet, and not very good on the treble side

I can change the bridge and saddle ( non-compensated I notice) for some bone ones will that help a bit ?
By the way, what do you do if you file a bit too much off and get a slight rattle ?

Also I hear about people messing with struts and bracing etc. inside the guitar , shaving bits off and removing some , what effect does it really have ?
What could i do realistically , if anything , to try to improve it a bit ,,.

I do have the time to do it but, I'm not too good at woodwork , a bit like this thing I did for you

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2011 15:15:09

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Improving a bad guitar ..... (in reply to El Kiko)

If the Guitar has a thick Polyurathane Laquer On it that will be the best start to improving the sound. I have refinished a few guitars like that now and it has vastly improved the sound! A Conde is one example I can remember

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2011 15:23:07

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Improving a bad guitar ..... (in reply to El Kiko)

A quiet guitar would also lead me to believe your problem is a thick heavy finish on the soundboard and sanding struts will more then likely just create new problems.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2011 17:23:08

etta

Posts: 342
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: Improving a bad guitar ..... (in reply to El Kiko)

Life is too short to drink cheap wine or play a cheap guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2011 20:50:33

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Improving a bad guitar ..... (in reply to Sean)

interesting suggestions , if I was any good at crafts or knew what I was doing I would be tempted to try and take the top of and make a new one ...

quote:

Life is too short to drink cheap wine

and thats where the cheap wine comes in , Saturday night drunken lutherie , seems like a good idea until sunday morning.

It has got polyurathane on it , and it probably is thick , but sanding it all off would be a challenge , and what happens to the rosette ? and would it all be by hand. and how do you get in the corners around the neck and bridge?
I think I would make it worse, it might be an interesting project for an apprentice luthier though.
Still thinking ,, thanks for the suggestions , really....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2011 21:18:45

Flamingrae

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009

RE: Improving a bad guitar ..... (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

without a massive ammount of work ..

Errrrr......if you really want to go down this route, it's not like building from scratch, but it will involve a few late Saturdays, and a few bottles of (not soo cheap) wine.
I'm in the middle of a new construction so my conundrum will have to wait but if it was me..........
What the other guys say will make a difference - forget the back and sides. Mask them off, paint stripper on the front and gently scrape off. Light sand and scrape - french polish.
Bone fittings for nut and saddle. Possibly lower the action?
Check the break angle on the bridge - possibly re-do string holes?
Slightly better machines? Thin and smooth the neck - refinish?
If you are not that set up for going inside - dont! Set it up and play - keep as a second best or a traveller.
My eventual project will probably involve the above, but I'm going to go inside. I'll take the back off, lower the sides (classical at the mo), thin some of the bracing and general tidy up. Back on and put some nice binding on. Refinish the top and probably give it a new bridge. Guitar I picked up in Spain so memories, and if I can give it a bit of my character, then I will.
Best of luck whatever you do, just do it and move on. If you are careful, you should make a positive improvement.
Cheers, oh and save a really nice bottle for when you are done.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2011 22:35:53

desaviol

Posts: 14
Joined: Nov. 18 2011

RE: Improving a bad guitar ..... (in reply to El Kiko)

can someone tell me what finishing have the Ramirez fl1?
is it Polyurathane Laquer?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2011 23:09:05

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Improving a bad guitar ..... (in reply to El Kiko)

Most strippers work better on poles then poly and sanding will take you a lifetime.
Heat gun and spatula is the way to go, just enough heat to break the bond with the wood so it can be gently pried off. If there is bubbling or melting your in overkill and glue joints will give way, its a more delicate operation but it will save you from days of sanding work.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2011 23:21:13

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Improving a bad guitar ..... (in reply to Sean)

quote:

Most strippers work better on poles

Agreed

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2011 23:40:48

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Improving a bad guitar ..... (in reply to El Kiko)

the last fortune cookie i got with my supposedly chicken fried rice (more like feline fried rice) was more along the lines of something out of a charlie chan movie than a fortune but here goes: "the flower you receive is the flower given".

i suspect you could try to alter the genes of a dandoline to make a rose but unless you are a genetist specializing in botany you probably will need to accept that you have a dandoline. the problem with stripping off poly is that you run the risk of taking off wood in the process no matter how careful you may be. a heat gun may loosen the glue (now you know why you should never leave a guitar in the trunk on a summer day).

as you say, you are not too good at workwork so you have to ask yourself if you want to train yourself on this guitar with the high probability that you may ruin the guitar in the process. if you are ok with learning, which means mistakes galore, on this guitar then go for it.

selling is always an option to keep in mind.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2011 12:18:40

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Improving a bad guitar ..... (in reply to keith)

Ok ..First thanks to all you good luthiers that have given me something to think about.

and I am considering it, I just love messing with things I shouldn't . but really I wouldn't do anything until next year anyway as it is too close to Christmas,
So I am just on a fact finding and advice mission now.
I am interested in the comments about the polyurathane covering .
So I am forming a plan , as a project , to maybe actually do it next year sometime.
I think that the wood on the soundboard is a bit chunky anyway and if i were to sand or plain or somehow remove the poly then it would do no harm to actually deliberatly take a small bit off the thickness of the front anyway.
I also think the neck is a bit chunky as well compared to other guitars so I could shave the back of that a bit too.
I can see the point of a bone bridge saddle, as the vibrations pass through it to the wood , but not so much do I see the advantage of it as a nut , due to much of the time I would have a capo on anyway,
Maybe I will get all the info together in my head and start next year , and post how it was going and then after it's all done I will make a video of how it is OR have a nice warm fire ..

Pity I dont live near any of you , but there you go , I'm sure one of you can keep me right on this Foro..
So at the moment I'm just think about it ,

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2011 14:09:01

kominak

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 20 2010

RE: Improving a bad guitar ..... (in reply to El Kiko)

You may try this tip from recent Stew Mac newsletter - how to strip poly finish from electric guitar:

http://www.stewmac.com/tsarchive/ts0151.html

Should work on flamenco as well I guess?

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Slovakia

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 21 2011 8:52:52

Flamingrae

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009

RE: Improving a bad guitar ..... (in reply to kominak)

Cool link - just have to be careful with the heat issue though - cheers.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 21 2011 10:09:03

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Improving a bad guitar ..... (in reply to El Kiko)

Hmm interesting , but I dont think i will use heat at all , the one thing I have is a lot of time to do it, as it is an experiment and it's just for me . I can do it the laborious, hands on way, bit by bit over as many days weeks as I need ....

It would be nice to be in touch with you luthier people here and I lost a few notes as each stage is entered into , and of course bail me out when it all goes wrong !!!
First thing I suppose is having a valid plan and all the materials etc , to execute it ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 21 2011 10:22:42