The sound of El Niño Miguel

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ArtZumer

Posts: 67
Joined: Aug. 4 2010
From: Brisvagas

The sound of El Niño Miguel

Hey guys, I posted this on the El Niño Miguel thread but it's probably better on it's own. I've been listening to heaps of El Niño Miguel ever since I became aware of flamenco and it strikes me that one of the major differences between him and other guitarrists is sound. Does anyone know what guitar he used to play? It sounds slightly more buzzy and loose to me than most guitars. Or was it more his technique that got him that distinctive sound? Any advice for trying to head towards this sound?

_____________________________

“I’m retired now so the practice is down to just 4 hours” - Julian Bream

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 5:29:21

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel (in reply to ArtZumer)

quote:

Or was it more his technique that got him that distinctive sound?

I love his "toque".
I believe that all depends from hi's personal way to play: very powerfull hands!, excellent speed! besides the way he handels the guitar.
It is not a matter of guitar.
He is the essence of "flamenco guitarrist" considered as a reflexive experinece of life.
He has been, is and will be always THE BEST.

ciao,
Giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 7:26:02

ArtZumer

Posts: 67
Joined: Aug. 4 2010
From: Brisvagas

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel (in reply to ArtZumer)

Glad to see someone sharing my view.
Personally he tops Paco and all the rest for me.
But really what I mean is, what seperates his playing from others.
Sure he's got speed but so does Paco.
Maybe it is his hands but it feels to me almost like all of his notes are more staccato and his right hand closer to the bridge than most others. Even in arpeggios it feels like every note stands out and is distinguishable, unlike the smoother sound that many others have IMO.

_____________________________

“I’m retired now so the practice is down to just 4 hours” - Julian Bream

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 9:04:53

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel (in reply to ArtZumer)

quote:

all of his notes are more staccato and his right hand closer to the bridge than most others. Even in arpeggios it feels like every note stands out and is distinguishable, unlike the smoother sound that many others have IMO

I agree! 100%!

I am now working on " A mi padre" and "lamento"..... and I feel what you wrote.

I dont know how better to explain my opinion, but I believe that in his unique toque there is no place for some kind of "theatrical and romantic sound" but "real as material sound", this last as expression of the real and dramatic experience of life wich is the way, I believe, He feels the flamenco experience and after all, what I think the flamenco is!

ciao
giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 9:23:42

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel (in reply to ArtZumer)

Listen to early Paco. Its exactly the same style and compositions that Paco did 10 years before him, in his early albums.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 9:31:27

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Its exactly the same style and compositions that Paco did 10 years before him, in his early albums.

It is, truly, the first time I read this kind of comment about Paco or El nino Migel.
Deniz, I think you are wrong.

I like very much PdL but..... El nino Miguel is another story... from the beginning to today : no doubt of it.

ciao
Giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 10:03:47

ArtZumer

Posts: 67
Joined: Aug. 4 2010
From: Brisvagas

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel (in reply to ArtZumer)

Yes, TBH I first discovered Flamenco after seeing a flamenco guitarist playing with one of the most amazing Gypsy/Klezmer orchestra that just exuberated a kind of raw power and culture which sucked me in. When I started listening and playing Flamenco I only heard the more modern guitaristas and was almost turned off flamenco, then I bought that double CD set of Niño and it straight away reminded me of that powerful cultural music to what I had first seen (even though of a different genre).

quote:

I am now working on " A mi padre" and "lamento"..... and I feel what you wrote.

hahah I am jelous that your at that level - I hope to catch up in a couple of years time!

I tried to start playing Los Pescadores and it just killed!!! For now I will just try imitate his sonitique (is that the right word?).

_____________________________

“I’m retired now so the practice is down to just 4 hours” - Julian Bream

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 10:28:52

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel (in reply to ArtZumer)

quote:

I tried to start playing Los Pescadores and it just killed!!!

...well.. "Los Pscadores" is not an easy piece!!! at all!

I am not to an high level!... also becuase I come from classical and because old ( 53! ) and with very small time to practice ( I play all the time I am not at work, so often at night..... good reason to my wife to kill me one of this days! :-) )
I suggest you to tray with "lamento" first, it is very easy.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 10:50:45

Luka

Posts: 16
Joined: Oct. 30 2011

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel (in reply to ArtZumer)

quote:

Glad to see someone sharing my view.
Personally he tops Paco and all the rest for me.
But really what I mean is, what seperates his playing from others.
Sure he's got speed but so does Paco.
Maybe it is his hands but it feels to me almost like all of his notes are more staccato and his right hand closer to the bridge than most others. Even in arpeggios it feels like every note stands out and is distinguishable, unlike the smoother sound that many others have IMO.

I don't think it's possible to get any closer to the bridge than that (3:23 - ):

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 10:56:39

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel (in reply to gbv1158)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gbv1158

quote:

Its exactly the same style and compositions that Paco did 10 years before him, in his early albums.

It is, truly, the first time I read this kind of comment about Paco or El nino Migel.
Deniz, I think you are wrong.

I wish i could say the same, coz its like the 1000th time Miguel fans try to dethrone Paco. It gets old, and boring tbh.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 11:01:23

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel (in reply to XXX)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

Listen to early Paco. Its exactly the same style and compositions that Paco did 10 years before him, in his early albums.

exactly.
i don't think Nino (or anyone else) would have been able to compose the things he composed, without been influenced by paco. thats a fact.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 11:15:32

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel (in reply to XXX)

quote:

coz its like the 1000th time Miguel fans try to dethrone Paco

I don't think there will be anybody that will be able to "dethrone" Paco! but at the same time it has no sense to compare Paco with N. Miguel, who tryes to declare who is the king , IMO, makes a VERY BIG MSTAKE: two different personality ( VERY different) two different guitarrists, two different experience of life! ... two different artist!

an exsample to make it simpler?.. ( let's use a mathematical formula :-) )
PdL = Leonardo Da vinci : N.Miguel = Michelangelo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 12:20:41

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel (in reply to gbv1158)

one other thing! :
because Paco is also a GENTLMAN, when interviewed abouth N.Miguel, he has had allways nice words about him and hi's stile among full rispect also of his dramatic experience of life.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 12:33:34

ninoderoberto

Posts: 13
Joined: Dec. 16 2006

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel (in reply to ArtZumer)

Yes, his guitar sound alike has 12 string ( ee,bb,gg,dd,aa,ee) ...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 14:49:13

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel VS PDL (in reply to ArtZumer)

Photos show Miguel with a Ramirez back in 1970's. But live video performances on youtube from Spain TV archives show him always using Conde blanca (just like EVERYONE ELSE used in the 70's, and still today). His sound I don't consider so personal as some a test to in this thread...I simply think you guys are so focused on HIS toque at the moment you notice his personal details and style vs others. I agree with some others that the influence of PDL is VERY strong in his composition and arrangements. I can't eliminate the possibility that he was a direct influence on PDL's later creations, though it seems unlikely.

I will admit that his playing, more based on his videos then the 2 solo recordings I have, was very innovative in the sense of his use of some unorthodox tonalities for his day. (namely his vals buleria in C# and rumba in D#, and Rondeña por buleria). For sure his ideas were influential on modern players in this regard, especially the so called "Cañoroto" players, as well as Tomatito, Gerardo Nuñez, Riqueni, Vicente Amigo, etc etc. What my ear tells me is that although his melodic and rhythmic ideas were along PDL lines, his tonality ideas opened a door that allowed other young players to explore on their own, even though the more modern players also were following PDL's evolution of compas and harmony.

(Example:N. miguel rumba in D# + PDL sirocco synchopation and dynamic mixed with harmony and improvisation=Tomatito Alejandria....or N. Miguel Rondeña buleria + PDL Niño Curro=Nuñez Hacia Mi....etc )

Later PDL seems to have been inspired himself by the young generation, and still continues to explore and evolve today. Whereas Miguel, despite what ever substance abuse or mental problems suffered, seems to still play in the same style as he did as a young man in the 70's. In general I find almost all players, except for PDL, seem to have their personal style and stick with it for the entire career, despite being influenced, and influencing others around them. PDL seems to be the exception in the sense his recordings clearly show an progressive evolution of style, and indeed taken by their recorded date, are a good snap shop of the general trend of players at what ever time period.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 18:41:01

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel VS PDL (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

In general I find almost all players, except for PDL, seem to have their personal style and stick with it for the entire career

Very true, and over a greater range than just Flamenco. That’s why the exceptions stand out so far. The Moody Blues always sound pretty much the same, good though that may be. The difference between the first Beatles album and the last is night and day.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 19:40:05

ArtZumer

Posts: 67
Joined: Aug. 4 2010
From: Brisvagas

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel (in reply to ArtZumer)

Ok we've kind of gone on the usual sidetrack when El Niño Miguel comes up. IMO Paco was much much more influencial that El Niño Miguel but I still prefer ENM's playing and sound even over young Paco.

quote:

His sound I don't consider so personal as some a test to in this thread...I simply think you guys are so focused on HIS toque at the moment you notice his personal details and style vs others.

Great, back to the original discussion. I'm suprised you don't find his style that unique, could you please name some other artists that you think have a similar style or Toque (for my own benifit here

). IMO The closest I can think off to getting that powerful, rhythmic playing is diego del gastor although obviously these two are very different guitarists in so many ways.

_____________________________

“I’m retired now so the practice is down to just 4 hours” - Julian Bream

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 19:58:48

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: The sound of El Niño Miguel VS PDL (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

.I simply think you guys are so focused on HIS toque at the moment you notice his personal details and style vs others.

"vs others"?

personally, I believe that each guitarrist (tolking about the Masters) is unique, aside from the fact that they can not avoid, some how, to influence each other; as you know, this is INSIDE every form of art.

what rimains is that Nino Miguel, even if he has done few pieces because the facts of his life, expresses with his toque a "sound expressivity and intensity" hi's own and not some one else's - IMO-

ciao
Giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2011 14:11:04