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Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to Arash)
well you know that really grew on me. For the first few measures I was thinking "oh errr, no I don't think so...." and then I grew to like it's idiosyncracies, so much so that I listened to it again!
Posts: 4530
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to Ailsa)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ailsa
well you know that really grew on me. For the first few measures I was thinking "oh errr, no I don't think so...." and then I grew to like it's idiosyncracies, so much so that I listened to it again!
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to Arash)
Well, it's unusual, but it's not an unusual Granadinas, since it isn't even Granadinas at all. Just because he plays a lot of unusual stuff and calls it "Granadinas" doesn't make it Granadinas – it's still just a lot of unusual stuff. If someone plays a Bach Fugue and calls it "Bulerias" does that make it Bulerias? This bears as much relationship to Granadinas as a Bach Fugue does to Bulerias.
I listen to all kinds of music, and I'm perfectly happy to take that music on its own terms, and even like it and enjoy listening to it, but why on earth is he calling it Granadinas when it has nothing to do with Granadinas.
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic I listen to all kinds of music, and I'm perfectly happy to take that music on its own terms, and even like it and enjoy listening to it, but why on earth is he calling it Granadinas when it has nothing to do with Granadinas.
I dont listen to all kinds of music, maybe that is the reason why the part around 1:40 does not remind me of neither a bulerias nor a Bach Fuge, but only a Granainas. Btw is it Granainas or Granadinas??
Posts: 6447
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to XXX)
quote:
Btw is it Granainas or Granadinas??
It is either. "Grana'iana" is the Andaluz dialect i.e. missing out the "d". They miss out most of the consonants. Learning Spanish in Andalucía (like me) can set you back a bit
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
If someone plays a Bach Fugue and calls it "Bulerias" does that make it Bulerias? This bears as much relationship to Granadinas as a Bach Fugue does to Bulerias.
Well, one could interpret Bach as a bulerias if it is done with aire in compas. In the case of just a bit of bach mixed into a falseta, then it could come off as flamenco puro if done right.
This guy makes use of a couple standard markers that define typical granaina toque, so I feel it is ok for him to call it granaina. If he were playing for a singer, he may need to use discretion as to WHICH of his wacky ideas might work in context, but it could be possible.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to Arash)
quote:
In the case of just a bit of bach mixed into a falseta, then it could come off as flamenco puro if done right.
Yes, you're right there. I have frequently heard bits and snatches of classical music and folk songs mixed into falsetas. The funniest one I have ever heard is Paco Cepero mixing in a direct quotation from the Russian folk song "Ochi Chernye" into a Bulerias. Hysterical. It comes at about 2.25.
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
If someone plays a Bach Fugue and calls it "Bulerias" does that make it Bulerias? This bears as much relationship to Granadinas as a Bach Fugue does to Bulerias
Without the opening nobody would ever doubt that these are Granaínas. What makes flamenco special is the fact that it is living art.
Nevertheless I don't like most of his strange new ideas that much. But the "ordinary" elements are very well composed. The part starting around 5:20 was nice.
A perfect example for good taste concerning compositional innovations is the flageolett-section in Riqueni's "A mi Madre" in my opinion. I think Sabicas was the first to introduce such elements into his compositions.
Posts: 4530
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic
Well, it's unusual, but it's not an unusual Granadinas, since it isn't even Granadinas at all. Just because he plays a lot of unusual stuff and calls it "Granadinas" doesn't make it Granadinas – it's still just a lot of unusual stuff. If someone plays a Bach Fugue and calls it "Bulerias" does that make it Bulerias? This bears as much relationship to Granadinas as a Bach Fugue does to Bulerias.
I listen to all kinds of music, and I'm perfectly happy to take that music on its own terms, and even like it and enjoy listening to it, but why on earth is he calling it Granadinas when it has nothing to do with Granadinas.
starting @1.25 to 1.56 (and some other parts) - i personally gave my OK to Granaina title.
But yes, its Borderline. A tiny bit more experimental stuff in this piece, and i wouldn't call this flamenco at all (not to mention granaina).
But since you once mentioned that Paco is "off topic" and not flamenco at all, i am surprised that you could even listen to this piece for 10 seconds So, thanks for your patience and open mind in this case. At least you gave it a chance.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to Arash)
quote:
But since you once mentioned that Paco is "off topic" and not flamenco at all, i am surprised that you could even listen to this piece for 10 seconds So, thanks for your patience and open mind in this case. At least you gave it a chance.
Yes, I remember saying that, but of course it was just supposed to be a joke. I've been involved in flamenco for forty years as a performer, teacher, critic, author, etc., and it would be preposterous for anyone to say in a serious tone that Paco isn't flamenco. Clearly – besides being the greatest technical virtuoso ever – he is one of the most, if not THE most, influential figures in the entire history of flamenco, along with I would say Ramon Montoya, Nino Ricardo, and Sabicas. The problem with the printed word on the internet is that when someone tries to say something funny or make a joke you can't see the twinkle in their eye, or the mischievous smile on their face. I listen to and watch Paco all the time, and when I'm finished I always have to immediately do one thing – go practice my picado!
Posts: 6447
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
The problem with the printed word on the internet is that when someone tries to say something funny or make a joke you can't see the twinkle in their eye, or the mischievous smile on their face.
That is what smileys are for - they are not perfect, but essential on forums or one gets flamed - you go on the defensive and then it just gets worse.
Posts: 4530
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to Ramon Amira)
ok, prominent, if that thread in the oldschool foro was ironic and a joke (honestly i didn't feel you were joking at that time, it seamed to be a very serious discussion), then you should have said that yoú were joking at that time in this foro, to avoid misunderstandings...... i really thought you guys (you, captain bob, etc.) really think that paco is not flamenco at all and totally off topic, etc.. but of course if you say so, i have to believe you now. thank you for clarifying that now.
yeah smileys are good, but even with smileys its no guaranty, as i experienced it myself quite a few times ->>
p.s. even if you would really think that paco is off topic, its not a big deal. its your right to think whatever you want. it would just be a little weird, thats all.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to Arash)
Yes, Smileys sounds like a good idea to avoid misinterpretation – but I don't have the slightest idea how to use them. I once asked, and in reply someone listed a whole string of these little icons, and said "Here are all of them," but he didn't tell me how to actually attach one to a post, and how to place it following any particular sentence or word, etc. How do I do it?
Posts: 4530
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to Ramon Amira)
well, just click on them (they are on the left side of the screen, when you want to reply to a post). quite easy.
just click on the smiley. for instance something like [ : D ] for this smiley: appears on your screen when you click it (you don't see the smiley yourself, but later when you send you post, the smiley will be there.
bursche, never mind, long story, he is the admin of the other foro.
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to bursche)
quote:
I missed the whole Captain Bob story! What was it?
bursche,
Well, it seems like a long time ago now...but..
It was about the time when Simon couldn't run the Forum anymore and a kindly Forum member offered to host the database and software on his own servers.
Didn't quite work out that way though..
Ramin over at Flamenco-Teacher was generous enough to allow us to post communications over at his site on what was happening at the time.
If you go over there and type in "ForoFlamenco" in his search engine, you will get the flavour of the situation as it unfolded.
Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to Arash)
He's a really nice guy... I was living across from the Taller Flamenco in Sevilla... Michele happens to be teaching there... out of the blue he took me to his place in a lovely little village just outside Sevilla to try some of his guitars one day... really cool experience and great guy!
RE: A quite unusal Granaina - Michel... (in reply to Arash)
quote:
He's a really nice guy... I was living across from the Taller Flamenco in Sevilla... Michele happens to be teaching there...
Hahahah I knew I recognized him from somewhere just couldn't figure it out. I was learning at Taller Flamenco but from Manuel Berraquero, I think he gave me one lesson though. Cool place.
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