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memorization
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gerundino63
Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands
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 RE: memorization (in reply to rickm)
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Hi!
I can only speak from my own experiance, I have a "repetoire" for more than an hour, I can play by head, so here is my two cents.
First I must say, I can not memorize things if it is in musical notation. ( a classic guitar frend wanted to play duets in the past with me, i could read it from the paper, but could not memorize it, even after a year)
If it is on tablature, as strainge as it may sound, I have no problems memorize long pieces.
But there is a nasty thing, you can play it from tab, and after that, it is not fun to do, because it looks like you have to start all over again, you have to studie on memorize it.
Sometimes it takes a month of two extra, but than you manage it.
Start the piece, play till you memorize it, and see where it is going wrong.
Than studie this.
Play again, from the beginning, and you will see, you come further than before, when it is getting wrong again, studie this, and start all over again.
This way you remember it.
It cost a lot of dicipline and efford, but you will nearly never forget a piece once you memorice it, even if you do not play it for a few months.
Hope this help you a bit...
Peter
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Date Apr. 11 2005 12:01:14
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musicalgrant
Posts: 188
Joined: Oct. 21 2004
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RE: memorization (in reply to rickm)
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quote:
having just listened to the acero post, I find myself wondering this- how do folks memorize long scores? I
Hi, how do we memorize scores? If you find a good way let me know!! I have struggled with this myself...but have always managed to do it...i think everyone finds their onw way of memorizing.
But this is what i do..This is base on a practice schedule, where one allocates two x45 min slots a day to two new pieces, which i will keep doing for about 2 weeks that is what it usually takes to memorize a new piece...
And with the time that is left go over old stuff i already know and work on that too
I have a timer that i set for 45 minutes..And then i will play the NEW score right the way through/and listen to an audio sample as well. To give me an idea of what the piece is about...ie; phrases, rhythm, shapes etc..
And then i will work on one phrase at a time...over and over again i will play it, and as sorin says, look away from the score and try and play it without the score...then once memorized onto the next...etc.etc
What tends to happen with this method is that the beginning of the piece is memorized and the ending less so...So i will work on other phrases nearer the end of the piece as well.
One thing to remember is where all these phrases come in after each other and make a whole piece and hence flow into each other.
Remember to use the timer, as time is a subjective experience and music can make us lose sense of time...we may think we have practiced 45 mins but infact only practiced for 15....
I find that i can spend 45 mins and make lots of head way, and other days waste hours not studying/practicing properly.
I think to make the most of the time and use it wisely is the key to effective and efficeint progress.
And sometimes having a timed session can help achieve that.
I have memorized long pieces like Minera by Tomatito in 2 weeks using the above method...and performed it for the end of a degree in perfomance course. So i can say that it worked for me wwhen i was on a tight time schedule. And time was my most precious resource. 
Cheers Grant
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Date Apr. 11 2005 12:18:40
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: memorization (in reply to rickm)
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I have learned a lot about memorizing from a book on piano by someone named Chang. Understandably, piano scores are much more complex than guitar, in the sense that they have several times more notes than we do; and in classical music, their pieces can be ten minutes, fifteen minutes long.
The very first tip is, memorize the piece while you are learning to play it; dont' learn to play it and then try to memorize it. The latter is a big mistake that lots of "visual-linguistic" types make. I used to do it, and it makes things 5 X as hard.
The second tip is, learn/memorize the hard and/or hard to memorize parts first. Most people's way of memorizing it just to play the whole or half the piece over and over again, but this is a bad idea. It's a human tendency to avoid mental work, but that doesn't help our goal. Go to the hard parts and work them well. The ending is often hard.
Third, cycle. Cycling is take a small segment and playing it over and over again for 2-3 minutes. Often when you have a small segment you can play it much faster than you could otherwise, so take advantage of this fact. It is the amount of accurate repetitions you do that counts.
Fourth, do hand seperate practice. This is hard on the guitar, and makes much more sense on the piano, but I think it is still important. There are two things at work here: 1- the mind can't memorize when it is confused. If you pay attention, you will realize that sometimes you are not quite sure what you are doing or what something sounds like, and you will have a very hard time memorizing these things, especailly reproducing them under pressure. This is because the mind is confused. 2- We are really only able to do one thing at a time. When we throw in both hands, we lose a lot of our processing power, and each hand suffers. You will find that you can say, play fast and free with your right hand, but when you throw the elft hand in, you start fumbling.
The solution is to work with each hand seperately. Again, it takes a huge amount of mental work because you have to _imagine_ the true sound and you have to really memorize two things, the left and the right. Counterintuitively, this is actually much faster than only memorizing once, with hands together!
Fifth, most people don't have something completely memorized until they have forgotten it three times. Use this knowledge to make you more confident and help you to structure your work, not make you distressed. Also, the more you learn, the more you forget. Thus, a good sequence is 1. spend 5 minutes learning one passage, 2. spend 5 minutes learning another passage, 3. spend 5 on yet another passage, 4. going back and memorizing the 1st passage again, etc.
Sixth, for some reason the very last repetition before you quit any particular passage is very important. You should slow this one down to not make any mistake or hesitation on it, and then quit. Most people choose this repetition to play it as fast and sloppy as they can manage, which leads them to store these errors for all eternity!
Good luck!
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Date Apr. 11 2005 15:27:14
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: memorization (in reply to rickm)
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Something Todd touched on already. Sing it. Listen to it in the car, sitting in traffic, and be able to sing the whole thing rhythmically. Assuming you have a good consistant fingering from the "score" you are working w/ just be able to sing the phrasing of the piece (not necessarily all the correct pitches) and you will be able to keep it in your noodle. If you can't sing the phrase, then it means your fingers are bossing you around. Don't let them.
I am a pretty good reader, and one thing I realized reading music in school, was that I was not really "reading" a piece that I kept playing over and over. I had memorized it actually and the way the page looked in front of me was helping my fingers recall what to do. When I saw a score of the same piece written out differently, different spacing, type set, page layout, etc, I actually had to think more about what was on the page. So you could in theory "imagine" the score in front of you and it will help you remember. But that is not really KNOWING the music. If you can't sing the whole thing in your car while driving, than you don't really know it. But don't SPEED!
Ricardo
PS Sorin, learn the circle of 5ths, it will help you learn more chords in a key and the scale(s) that relate to them. Modes are the "moods" created by establishing a tonic off of a certain note from a scale. Like E phrygian is a mode that happens by tonisizing the 3rd note of the C major scale. Same notes as C major, different "mood". Learn the diatonic chord scale. 7 notes, 7 root chords, all keys.
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Date Apr. 12 2005 3:25:22
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rickm
Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004
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RE: memorization (in reply to rickm)
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thanks to the list for all the good advice. I agree with everything that is posted, and have practiced those things on and off. I particularly like the piano comparison involving hand seperation. One comment on the aural thing though. Years ago that would work. I could manage to pick out particular things easier than today. I did a lot of Van Halen then and came relatively easier and of course involved pentatonics so once the patterns were established I just doodled with it and there it was. Remembering it was also not so bad because after all we are bombarded with particualar pieces once they become popular on the airwaves. So, I can relate to the idea of listening to the piece, establishing the rythmn subconsciously and then associating while playing. I also agree with Mr. Lastra that at some point, establishing your own "voice" so to say is important to the muscial development. At his level of playing that is certainly critical. At my stage, trying to learn the flamenco flow, compas and subleties, I think I still need to be concerned with the details of what has gone before. My particuar problem is that, after years of gunfire, loud radios and siren, (I was a cop for 32 yrs) I am tone deaf in the mid range, particuarly to high notes. That translates to me not being able to hear well certainly, but what I do hear is distorted. (Hearing loss does not always signify "deafness" as we construe, but distortion of hearing equally) An example would be I can't hear my wife and daughter very well, unless they are speaking at me, at a comfortable distance. I can hear the utterances, but continually have to ask them to repeat what they say because all I hear is a slurry of noise. They obviously have highter pitched voices. My sons I can hear very well. Makes for some interesting discussions! (you dont listen to me.. ) What that means is that a typical, traditonal solea for example, once I have heard it, am familiar with the patterns, I can assume where it is at, and even if it involves a couple distinctly differnt notes, can typically find it. Where it gets impossible, lets say, is a artist like Nino Ricardo or Vincente who seem to be more lyrical in their writing and involve themselves with untraditional, more melodic "lines" so to speak. Then its like, "where are they now" For that I need the tab. tab does seem to be somewhat of a crutch and several posts have alluded to that, but does open up a lot of doors for me.
Without the benefit of excellent tone hearing, the tab provides for me in ways that would otherwise be impossible. You all have given me some good ideas and I appreciate your efforts, and I apologize for the long answering post thanks.
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Date Apr. 12 2005 12:57:24
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