RE: What can happen if you overdo it...

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Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: What can happen if you overdo it... (in reply to Ruphus)

Are you saying that one shouldnt try acupuncture then?

Thats a bit of a shame because I have found it very useful, especially in helping relieve the inflammation in overused tendons. For me it worked immediately and I was much better a day or 2 later.

Was it placebo...possibly?
Did it work better than the cortisone medication...definately!

quote:

And what if you heard of that George Soulié de Morant who "brought" this practise to Europe, was a sharlatan

George Soulie did not "bring" Acupuncture to Europe by the way. There were treatises written on acupuncture as far back as 1683 in the Netherlands. Souliés theories on energetics have been superceeded but they were the most up to date at the time.

quote:

What would you say if physicists in China were ridiculing accupuncture? Having dismissed it long ago as hocuspocus, only held available for western pilgrims?

All physicists ridicule acupunture. Why should the Chinese be any different?
The reason is because physicists have yet to acurately describe life energy. It has properties that are electromagnetic and it has properties that are not. The flow of Qi or chi energy has been understood practically for many centuries but our 21st century science still has no way to acurately qualify or quantify it. We still dont even understand how our own electromagnetic fields are generated for tissue migration in utero.

Acupunture works by manipulating Qi energy...an energy that as yet we cant measure scientifically. My personal experience is that with a gifted practitioner it can work very well and is certainly worth trying.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2011 13:53:57

marrow3

Posts: 166
Joined: Mar. 1 2009

RE: What can happen if you overdo it... (in reply to Pimientito)

Generally it is not scientific to indiscriminately dismiss alternative medicine, but skepticism is considered good practice.

www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v13/n7/full/nn.2562.html

edit: cut out irrelevant stuff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2011 14:29:09

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: What can happen if you overdo it... (in reply to Pimientito)

Hi Pimientito,

Placebo means psychosomatic effects. ( Effects through imagination.)

I know that Morant wasn´t the first one ( French missionares in the 17th century ), but the jumbomumbo practised today is based on his inventions.
Morant´s introduction has nothing to do with the traditional Chinese myth.

I don´t think the main reason to be sceptisim against life enregy ( in respect of which I would prefer to consider W.R.´s "orgon" findings in place of Chinese shamanism).

The reason is that there exists no empirical effect. Not even now, after mass documentation over decades of scientifical records.

Anything a patient will regard as practical comes with a chance of cure, the more with punctual sensation like of needles that support imagination and can result in actual effects like relaxation and enhanced blood flow.

Same goes for removing warts under full moon.

Yet, it won´t change a thing on the fact that AP and its theoretical base is complete hocuspocus.

Unlike for instance with muscle-end receptor accupressure, which is traceable in function and effect.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2011 14:35:48

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: What can happen if you overdo it... (in reply to marrow3)

I can once again see the potential for the ruining of a thread by one of the usual suspects.

I got all different kinds of differing advice from the orthopedist, Chinese acupuncurist and physiotherapist. One of the few things they agreed on was don't strain the wrists. If simple therapeutic exercizes with a terra-band make my forearms burn like hell for days after I don't think it would be good to rest my entire weight on them.

A clinical trial showed that with some ailments fake acupunture worked just as well as the real. Epicondylitis however showed an obviously difference, proving there is something to the real thing.

Everyone is different and needs something different, I'll leave it at that.

_____________________________

Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2011 14:42:23

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: What can happen if you overdo it... (in reply to marrow3)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marrow3

Generally it is not scientific to indiscriminately dismiss alternative medicine, but skepticism is considered good practice.

www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v13/n7/full/nn.2562.html

Having said that I work in an office opposite a chap who is trained as a homeopath (in addition to being trained as a biochemist), who is trying to prove that there is a some kind of scientific effect in infinite dilution together with succussion (hitting and stirring the solution). The infinite dilution claim does go directly against a vast body of chemistry and so it becomes the basis of ridicule akin to those who disbelieve evolution, or that the Earth goes around the sun. But I can't say *for sure* that he wont find something interesting - then again life is short and I'm not holding my breath.

Homoeopathy well proved the phenomenon of image and belief.
It boosted after an article in a reputated magazine, after the magazine had exceptionally released beforehand a report on experimental series of a staff member of the Pasteur institute.
When the series was repeated it showed that the experiment leader and his assistant had unconsciously manipulated their countings. However, as the article was out already there was no halt anymore for the prairie fire going on until today.

Having discussed this with believers and pratising doctors, it showed that they will steardily dismiss any refuting facts.
Just like with convinced followers of the greek astrology calendar, who will not even blink when you tell them matter-related news, like that the astronomic situation has changed since the times of ancient greece, and that the signs of zodiac should have 2,5 more icons by now, with the whole cyle shifted by at least one sign by now.

Belief defies ratio; that´s what it´s there for.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2011 14:51:04

marrow3

Posts: 166
Joined: Mar. 1 2009

RE: What can happen if you overdo it... (in reply to Ruphus)

Hi Ruphus,
maybe we can talk about it, but I don't want to annoy people here
regards,
Richard

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2011 15:03:45

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: What can happen if you overdo it... (in reply to John O.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

I can once again see the potential for the ruining of a thread by one of the usual suspects.

hehehe

Hang the "don´t disturb" sign on the door and call me subversive element!

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.
I got all different kinds of differing advice from the orthopedist, Chinese acupuncurist and physiotherapist. One of the few things they agreed on was don't strain the wrists. If simple therapeutic exercizes with a terra-band make my forearms burn like hell for days after I don't think it would be good to rest my entire weight on them.

I can´t remember to have adviced you to rest on the wrists. >scratch, scratch<

But you sure can do without advice from me, independly of potential relief and healing that related insight could bring.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.
A clinical trial showed that with some ailments fake acupunture worked just as well as the real. Epicondylitis however showed an obviously difference, proving there is something to the real thing.

You should tellt about it to the corresponding gremium in Germany´s minstry of health. They must have missed out on such unheard information.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.
Everyone is different and needs something different, I'll leave it at that.

Another unknown information.
Apparently the academies should be informed that everyone is built in basically different ways.

I mean, if you were about special aspects like metabolism etc., alright ... But basically and individually varying anatomy seems like some really interesting news.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2011 15:09:46

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: What can happen if you overdo it... (in reply to Pimientito)

Proving my point. This is why I hardly post here anymore.

Sorry guys, I'm off for good.

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2011 23:35:27