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so i currently have a 2006 Conde Hermanos EF4 guitar. it is a good guitar-two advanced players said it was one of the good ones after playing it.
i am highly considering getting in line for a luthier built guitar. i am very limited in my skills and knowledge of Flamenco at this moment-and moreso all the different body sizes/styles.
i intend to talk with the luthier i have chosen(peter tsiorba) concerning the above. but i wanted to get some thoughts and suggestions from all of you-as i figure there are some of you that have "been there-done that".
i am not held to what i guess is considered traditional wood types either. i am open to other woods for the top/back/sides. my main desire is good sound and excellent playability.
i will never play in a group or performance or gig out-i already know that. starting the flamenco trail at 51 years old and having limited time for practice. i tend to prefer the slower paced songs like Solea. probably my most favorite guitar player is Moraito, next would probably be Ricardo Marlow and Don Soledad.
so i need to do some research over the next year to decide some things about the guitar-i will more than likely tell Peter all the above and just turn him loose to build what he hears me talking about. I think it would be good for me to find some different guitars built differently to hear. where i live there are NO flamenco players within hours(like 5 or 6) that i know of. so i am limited to youtube and soundclips from stores.
there is one particular Torres build at Zalveltas that i like a lot-i like the look of it and more important the sound.
i'll post a reply to this with that link. so armed with what i've said, throw me out some ideas and suggestions.
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to darylcrisp)
okay, here is the guitar i really dig-lookswise and soundwise-i played all the flamencos at this store-i find one other one i liked, but this one took me immediately and i never cared for the others.
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to darylcrisp)
skyboyroller--exceptional advice from anders. a luthier worth his weight in cypress will ask you about the sound you are looking for, your preferred woods, measurements (width of nut, length of scale and possibly thickness/shape of the neck) and how you like to tie and adjust your strings (i.e., number of holes in the tie block and if you want pegs or machines). i suspect there might be a question or two i did not list.
as to the guitar at zavaletas--if she took you immediately and you dig her then you should treat this lady like any lady that grabs you--you do what you can to spend long hours with her playing and getting intimate with each other.
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to darylcrisp)
Poppycock!
I think all beginner guitarists should take light bulbs to the guitar dealer shop and look inside very guitar and make expert pronouncements about how the guitar will sound according to the bracing patterns observed. I have never in all the years I've been involved with instrument making met one beginner guitarist who knew less than an experienced guitar maker.
Only a beginner would understand the subtle variation on the superimpositions of brace, bridge and top thickness required to produce the sonorous and fecund sounds of the regal flamenco guitar and it's noble forerunner the Spanish classical guitar. It is only with the clear, concise, multivalent mind of the beginner that one can move forward without the quagmire of years of shop work fogging up ones aural perceptions.
Leave it to your luthier, ha! Indeed, never have such words of impending folly been spoken. I would not leave a paper thin dead frog in the road for some jack of no trade luthier to examine and pass sonic judgment on.
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Ron.M)
In defense of the beginners...
We luthiers are partially-responsible, and perhaps the "information age" in general. It's been know to happen that opinions (on this bracing pattern or that) were stated too boldly, and with such fervor that those darn BEGINNERS assumed they were universal truths!???
Don't get me wrong, Stephen. I totally hear you on this one, it can be a real problem. I'm just saying that we luthiers may be at least partially responsible for creating this very linear way of thinking about guitar design and sound. Once we truly get into it, I believe most of us quickly discover that nothing is terribly linear in guitar construction, and that's the line I'll stick to ;)
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Peter Tsiorba Classical-Flamenco-Guitars tsiorba.com
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to darylcrisp)
I like to think of the guitar as an air pump.
The wood doesn't make the sound. Vibrating air does. Just like in a flute, a drum, or a stringles. The sound of the guitar depends on the way it pushes and pulls air, some of which radiates directly off the top, and some of which is excited inside the guitar chamber. The bracing pattern affects how the top moves and and pushes air, but so does the thickness of the top, the weight/stiffness of the bridge, the way the back couples with the top, and other factors.
Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to darylcrisp)
Yes, A flute produces a certain note because of the resonant frequency of the air column inside it, which is excited by blowing across the hole. Different notes are obtained by changing the length of the air column.
A guitar body is a means of radiating the string vibrations by providing an increased surface area rather than by creating a vibrating air column.
The fact of the guitar containing a body of air and being surrounded by air does not make it an air pump. There is a very small amount of air moving very rapidly in and out of the soundhole but this does not to me constitute a pump.
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to darylcrisp)
Yes, but I'm not talking about how the instrument produces different pitches. I'm talking about how sound is created in general and what influences the "tone" of the instrument. Sound is vibrations transmitted through whatever is between your ear and what's creating the sound, usually air in the case of listening to an instrument. Air is actually displaced when you hit a note on the guitar, or tap a piece of wood, or blow into a flute. True it may be pumping a relatively "small" amount of air. But if you take a nice blanca in Spanish Cypress with the strings off and tap on the top, you can actually SMELL the air coming out of it
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to darylcrisp)
quote:
A guitar body is a means of radiating the string vibrations by providing an increased surface area rather than by creating a vibrating air column.
I agree. Lots of people make the basic mistake of conceptualizing the guitar, or any string instrument for that matter, as a box with strings on it. It's diametrically opposed to that concept. It's first a string, then a string with a box attached it it.
I'm no scientist, but if you really get into it you may find the air movement is about supporting the fundamental, and or driven by the the fundamentals and the thing that supports the fundamental and gives it complexity and richness are overtones. Overtones don't "pump" air.
It's the sonic details that count, not the tormentita. However I could be full of hot air, which for a luthier is not an uncommon state of being.
When you hear a house being built and you are ten feet from the guy swinging a hammer you feel the impact of the hammer to the nail head in a visceral way. You can palpably feel air moving, vibration moving through you, yet you are not experiencing the whole envelope of sound that the hammer makes. You get the "windy" part of the blow and the fundamental aspect of the sound.
If you walk a block away from the building site and listen again you hear the core sound of the nail being driven, you hear the "ping" of the overtones, the high partials of the envelope of sound. The blow and vibration and air movement has decayed and dropped out of the sound at one block away, but the sound of the nail being driven is somehow still very potent. And this is a very important and beautiful thing to understand. As the nail gets shorter the partials it produces change! The correlation to this action on the guitar is when fretting higher on the fret board you shortening the vibrating string length. What happens when you play higher notes? You move less air than when you play low bass notes. then why to upper partials carry so far through the environment? It's not because they are driven by moving air produced by the guitar.
This is what good guitars are about. Having and hearing near and far at the same time. You get some air pumping and you get airy basses and that wooly "chest" sound, but you also get the clarity of the block distant framing nail being driven with that "pinging" sound squeezing up between the fuzzy scratchy chest sounds.
That clarity from overtone support is not about how much air is being moved, but how effortlessly it's being moved. Some guitars don't have a lot of that support which makes them lackluster and one dimensional. Other guitars have too much upper partial activity and they are strange, tight and unpleasant, but often project like mad. ( And when they do project they can be quite pleasant far out front. )
So the deal is to make the guitar that agrees with itself and speaks easily under the hands. It has near and far at the same time, not always in perfect balance, but that is what makes them super interesting and personal. One of the things I think about when guitar making is how to produce that "near and far" envelope of sound re: the carpenter and framing nail blow metaphor/comparison.
I advocate learning to listen through "surface" sound and hear the core sounds and see if the complexity and beauty come out because the guitar surprises you with how it peppers the sound with a back and forth of airy/wooly chest sound and "pinging" upper partial sounds. I also ascribe that wooly chest sound as one of the things that gives flamenco guitars the dry husky voice. Flamencos seem to err on the side of being more airy and furry sounding, but good ones almost always have the underlying presence of blooming overtones.
Does that all sound like a load of bull? It should, but much of it is fundamentally true.
The problem with guitar making vis a vis this air moving question is that nobody wants to address the 900 pound soprano in the room. How does she project that high pitched melody line to the back of the house and keep it crystal clear and audible? Yet it's not fuzzy and difficult to hear, but rounded and full of warmth? Could it be something about her skull ? Or is it her lungs? A great soprano once told me that the lines in the Queen of the Night aria of Mozart can be sung with minimal taking of breaths if you do it right. She said done well, it's effortless. Maybe it's true and maybe it's not, but it's a neat thing to contemplate. She sang at La Scala in her youth so I tend to side with her opinions.
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
I agree. Lots of people make the basic mistake of conceptualizing the guitar, or any string instrument for that matter, as a box with strings on it. It's diametrically opposed to that concept. It's first a string, then a string with a box attached it it.
Then why do 2 different instruments with the same strings sound different?
Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to darylcrisp)
When you pump water, you displace it from one location to another rather than agitating it backwards and forwards. The action of movement in air does not inherently constitute pumping The guitar soundhole is acting as a vent to equalize pressures inside and out rather than as the discharge hose from a pump. Look at what happens when you install one of the popular feedback buster soundhole plugs. You still have sound production but at a lesser volume and with reduced bass response since the changes in internal pressure restrict top and back movement.
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to darylcrisp)
OK, I think we are talking about exactly the same thing and just calling it something different Maybe "pump" isn't exactly the right word but "air mover" doesn't quite sound right either. My basic point remains that the top bracing is one factor in sound production and the placement of braces does not have as linear or profound an effect as some people think.
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to darylcrisp)
Stephen I just read your edits and I like where you're going with that. The wisest guitar maker here probably understands about 30% of how and why guitars produce the specific sounds they do. In the end everyone has a different "mental model" or way of conceptualizing how their guitars work and how to get good results. One's mental model may in fact be complete BS scientifically but that doesn't mean it doesn't get you to where you need to be. In the end it's all in people's perceptions.
Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to darylcrisp)
The problem Andy is when someone like Somogyi promotes a BS model of the guitar where he sums it up as "the guitar is basically an air pump" and this becomes accepted without critical analysis and further promoted within the luthiery community.
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
quote:
Then why do 2 different instruments with the same strings sound different?
Perhaps because they are _two_ different instruments, just maybe?
The idea is not literally that instrument will sound the same, the idea is that the string is the first consideration not the box. First came the bowstring, then came the gourd resonator. It's no different today, only our gourd resonator making has become super esoteric. String length, intended pitch range etc. are the factors you design around. Only today all you need to do is copy some tried and true design an VOILA you're in the ball park, right. Does not change the fact that it's conceptually based on the string first.
Most major instrument developments over the centuries have been based on advances in string technology. A good basic example would be the development of over wound bass strings on violin family instruments which had lasting effects on mensure ( scale length) concert pitches in various cities, etc. All this plus the intentions of performers and composers drives the innovations. In many cases the reason new things in instruments design were possible is because better strings were available which made it possible to change the size of the "box" or bodies of the instruments. In the case of the violin family it enabled makers to make smaller cellos and violas which were effective and in the case of guitars it enabled them to become larger.
Then think about modern metal strings and how that effected the creation of electric basses and other modern instruments. Concepts were realized due to string technology developments in conjunction with players and composers needs.
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Jeff Highland)
quote:
The problem Andy is when someone like Somogyi promotes a BS model of the guitar where he sums it up as "the guitar is basically an air pump" and this becomes accepted without critical analysis and further promoted within the luthiery community.
I don't know man, I think he puts out a few interesting ideas. He seems to get a little too obsessed with the importance of the back and tuning the 2 plates to specific frequencies. And of course his representation is oversimplified. But when it comes down to it isn't the difference between 2 guitars basically in they way they move air? The vibrations come from the string but you can't tell me that an unplugged electric guitar is moving air as efficiently as one with an air chamber. Personally I think all the interesting stuff lies in thinking about the ATTACK of the guitar. If you play the sound of a trumpet and the sound of a guitar, but remove the initial attack of the note and have them decay at the same rate they will sound damn similar. The attack of the note resets your ear and colors how you hear the sound. It's also the main difference between classical and flamenco guitars IMO.
Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to darylcrisp)
Why focus on the air? Sure it is the medium by which vibrations are transferred to our ear and heard as sound, but it is air vibrations not just movement. Get the plates to vibrate and they vibrate the surrounding air rather than pumping it.
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
When you guys can employ this sound then you have everything you need to succeed in this business. Articulation, voicing, and the way the strings snap instead of bounce, is just a beginning portal to understanding things that come by intuition, instead of applying science to things that really don't give us much but confirmation to what we already have accomplished from our inner senses/qualities.
Guitars pump a certain amount of air; some, more than others, but the bottom line is much more than pumping air, and this characteristically gives us an added essence of something that we don't put on paper but an innate skill for propio sello
Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK
RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Jeff Highland)
quote:
Air is the medium by which vibrations are transferred to our ear and heard as sound
Yes, this is easily forgotten when we play acoustic instruments. However, sit in a studio and monitor a thumping bass line and your hair will move if the levels are up high. This is the basis of the sound travel and vibration as Jeff neatly points out.
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Maybe "pump" isn't exactly the right word but "air mover" doesn't quite sound right either. My basic point remains that the top bracing is one factor in sound production and the placement of braces does not have as linear or profound an effect as some people think. 
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