650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings

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gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings

I read somewhere that a 650mm scale guitar doesnt fit with low tension guitars. The strings are much higher form the fretboard. Would you please find me solution except to lower the nut?

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Spyros

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2011 15:52:03

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to gounaro)

So where did you read this?

A lot of nonsense out there. And why should the strings be higher from the fretboard because of low tension strings or a 650mm scale?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2011 16:32:36

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I think that i read it in stringsbymail.com. In your guitar i owned Anders i put luthier 20 and the strings were way up from the fretboard. Maybe normal tension fits better (cause they're thicker) but Luthier 20 are the best strings for my fingers. Any advice?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2011 16:36:48

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

A lot of nonsense out there.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2011 18:04:30

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to Ron.M)

BTW, any advice someone? I suppose that is very logical the strings to come higher when are light tension. The height is different from the fretboard when is light tension instead of hard tension strings.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2011 18:20:05

tmock

Posts: 143
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
From: New York, New York

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to gounaro)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gounaro

Any advice someone?

Sorry, gounaro. I'm with Anders and Ron on this. Why would low tension strings sit higher?

I'm not a luthier, but I can't think of any reason why low tension strings would raise the action on a guitar. In fact, I've only ever heard, and experienced, the opposite effect. Higher tension strings will sometimes raise the action because they exert more force between the bridge and headstock. That extra tension can exaggerate the slight bow ("relief") that is built into most guitar necks. It's like stringing an old-fashioned hunting bow; the more tension you put between the two end points, the more the bow flexes.

When you're talking about scale length and string tension, maybe you're talking about an issue of overall string tension? All other things being equal, a shorter scale length will have lower perceived tension than a longer scale length. So maybe some players think the shorter scale length combined with low tension strings results in a playing feel that's too floppy. But that's just a matter of taste. Since 650mm seems to be the most popular scale length, and low-normal tension strings are pretty popular, I have to think that the combination of a 650mm scale and low tension strings works just fine for a lot of players.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2011 18:39:19

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to tmock)

I agree, but the thickness of the string doesnt get a role about the height from the fretboard?

When i use Luthier 30 it's just fine for me (the height), but when i use Luthier 20 i feel that in all teqhniques in left hand are more difficult. But i like the sound of Luthier 20 and it feels more comfortable in my fingertips.

Maybe i have to make some work in my saddle!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2011 18:52:04

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to tmock)

Just read the last paragraph!

(It refers about sound and only that, but they recommend that these strings are not for 650mm scale). But in my case the Luthier 20 are higher than D' Addarios EJ45 or Luthier 30. Thats simple!

http://www.stringsbymail.com/store/index.php?main_page=page&id=2

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2011 19:29:50

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to tmock)

quote:

I'm with Anders and Ron on this.

Oh no....I'm not agreeing on this technical point, like some bloody expert or something....

I just agree that "there's a lot of nonsense out there.." just in general.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2011 19:37:12

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to gounaro)

Try à little experiment:

Put two chairs little apart, place à pièce of wood over the backs, and measure the distance from the ground to the bottom part of the wood.
Do the same, but with an extremely thick piece of wood, and measure the distance again.

Let me know the outcome!

The string might be a little thicker, so the top of the string might be a little bit further away from the soundboard.

Or the nut needs replacement because of thinner strings getting pushed more inwards the carvings while thicker strings might stuck.

No worries either way...just put on the strings you like...and adapt your technique.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2011 19:55:36

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to kozz)

Thanks for the tip Kozz!

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Spyros

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2011 20:58:56

BarkellWH

Posts: 3461
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to gounaro)

Gounaro, the thickness of the string should have no bearing on the level of action, which is always measured from the bottom of the string to the top of the fret. Regardless of how thick or thin the string is, its bottom will be the same distance from the top of the fret.

Cheers,

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2011 22:50:51

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

Gounaro, the thickness of the string should have no bearing on the level of action, which is always measured from the bottom of the string to the top of the fret. Regardless of how thick or thin the string is, its bottom will be the same distance from the top of the fret.

Bill, I think you're right. But maybe i have to do some work to my nut, cause it really has a difference to my guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2011 1:44:33

tmock

Posts: 143
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
From: New York, New York

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

quote:

I'm with Anders and Ron on this.

Oh no....I'm not agreeing on this technical point, like some bloody expert or something....

I just agree that "there's a lot of nonsense out there.." just in general.

cheers,

Ron

Sorry, Ron. Didn't mean to misrepresent your post.

quote:

Just read the last paragraph!

(It refers about sound and only that, but they recommend that these strings are not for 650mm scale). But in my case the Luthier 20 are higher than D' Addarios EJ45 or Luthier 30. Thats simple!

http://www.stringsbymail.com/store/index.php?main_page=page&id=2

quote:

Bill, I think you're right. But maybe i have to do some work to my nut, cause it really has a difference to my guitar.

gounaro, I'm not trying to be difficult, but I'm still trying to understand how it's possible that the action on your guitar is higher with lower tension strings. As you say, Strings By Mail's suggestion that light tension strings might not be the best choice for 650mm guitars is based on sound alone. It has nothing to do with height of the action.

And I don't see how the slots in your nut could create a higher action for light tension strings, either. If anything, light tension strings should sit deeper in the slots of the nut because light tension strings have a smaller diameter. That would lower your action, not raise it.

Have you actually measured of the action, say from the bottom of the strings to the top of the fret at the 12th fret, with light and high tension strings? I'm just wondering if your assesment is based on measurements or on the feel of the action.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2011 2:59:15

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to tmock)

quote:

gounaro, I'm not trying to be difficult, but I'm still trying to understand how it's possible that the action on your guitar is higher with lower tension strings. As you say, Strings By Mail's suggestion that light tension strings might not be the best choice for 650mm guitars is based on sound alone. It has nothing to do with height of the action.

And I don't see how the slots in your nut could create a higher action for light tension strings, either. If anything, light tension strings should sit deeper in the slots of the nut because light tension strings have a smaller diameter. That would lower your action, not raise it.

Have you actually measured of the action, say from the bottom of the strings to the top of the fret at the 12th fret, with light and high tension strings? I'm just wondering if your assesment is based on measurements or on the feel of the action.

Hello, my friend...

I already noticed above that stringsbymail's article is reffering only for sound. About the height, i dont measure the fretboard but i can feel it on action. Anyway, thanks guys for your advices.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2011 3:08:41

tmock

Posts: 143
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
From: New York, New York

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to gounaro)

Ah. That makes sense, and I experience the same thing, I think. When I put very light strings on my guitar, the action feels too loose and the strings are too wobbly under my fingers. The action isn't any higher, but I perceive it to be higher because it's so loose that the string feels very unstable under my fingers. I think this might be what you are experiencing, too.

Higher tension strings give you more tactile feedback about whether you are pushing the strings straight down into the fretboard. This might make them feel closer to the fretboard, even though they aren't.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2011 3:25:49

estebanana

Posts: 9379
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

I just agree that "there's a lot of nonsense out there.." just in general.

I concur on this nonsense out there thing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2011 5:50:52

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to gounaro)

The article from Stringsbymail is just an opinion nothing else. Besides its about classical guitars. I have no ideas if you can rely on Stringsbymail with respect of flamenco guitars.

Luthier20 (L20) is not considered a low tension string. Its a normal tension. I personally consider L20 to be a little bit softer than Daddario J45 (J45) but I dont consider L20 to be low tension.

What you write about L20 giving a higher setup than J45 doesnt make sense to me. Nor from my personal experience, where I have stringed many guitars with both strings, nor from a tecnical point of wiev, I cant see how that should happen.

If you still have the guitar and its still a problem, bring it to a luthier. I would check it out for free since I built the guitar, but I´m pretty far away from you and as far as I remember, you sold the guitar?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2011 7:45:43

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Yes Anders, i have sold it. But i got one right now from a friend. I dont have any problems with your guitars. On the opposite, your guitars give me relief playing flamenco's difficult techiniques. Maybe, one day i will order you another one (when i get the money).

I will try once more Luthiers 20 and i will send you my results. Thanks for the interest my friend.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2011 12:50:46

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to tmock)

quote:

Ah. That makes sense, and I experience the same thing, I think. When I put very light strings on my guitar, the action feels too loose and the strings are too wobbly under my fingers. The action isn't any higher, but I perceive it to be higher because it's so loose that the string feels very unstable under my fingers. I think this might be what you are experiencing, too.

Higher tension strings give you more tactile feedback about whether you are pushing the strings straight down into the fretboard. This might make them feel closer to the fretboard, even though they aren't.

I suppose tmock that we have the same feeling. I guess you're right!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2011 12:52:41

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: 650 mm scale vs Low Tension Strings (in reply to gounaro)

Hi Gounaro, before you change your saddle, why not buy some new saddles, get a few and make one exactly the same as your original. Put your original in a packet labeled (suits such and such strings) and then work on the copy and lower the action with that one. Then you always have a reference to work from and can go back to the original anytime you wish.

In my experience, I found that my fingers get stronger and used to an "awkward feel" within days. The height at your bridge should be around 7.5, so be careful about going lower as you may introduce all sorts of problems.

I learnt something about saddles very quickly when I bought an electro cutaway nylon strung guitar. Someone had messed with the saddle and didn't get a straight edge on the bottom. The tone of the guitar was beautiful, but I thought there was a variation in string volume. I checked this out by rubbing my finger nail on the saddle next to each different string and I was right. This led me to believe that the same will be true with the acoustic. (Don't try this on your acoustic unless you have high technical skill - or ears - you won't harm it - it's just that you'll find it hard to hear a difference). Luthiers mark where they want to trim the saddles. Hope you solve the problem.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2011 13:37:54