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I can't seem to get the headstock design, bridge design chronology completely together. Did the three nephews use the same headstock at the same time and who started the Media Luna style? I have several Sobrinos and Condes going back to 1960 and it seems that the Esteso style head (nipple style) was in use in 1960 and the media luna was in use in 1961. Was this a cutover or were the nephews using different head styles in the same time period? There were also 2 different media luna styles - a more refined style was used by Faustino and a cruder style was used by Mariano? I have some of each. The bridges were also mixed up: double bar only, full frame inset at top and bottom then the filled white bridges. The double bar was the original Domingo Esteso style with the nipple style headstock. Who continued making original Domingo Esteso style guitar after he died? all three nephews? The Gravina, Felipe V addresses/makers we pretty much have cleared up I think...
Comments and history please?
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Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Conde / Sobrinos Headstock and b... (in reply to El Polaco)
This is better suited to the Luthiery section. Maybe admin will move it. Anyway, Esteso used that M. Ramirez head design up top, so Sobrinos did too. They started the media luna thing, supposedly, in 1953. I have seen weird variations on it ever since. The reason for the variations I believe is because even more luthiers than the 2 brothers, were making those guitars. This is just my educated guess, and gut feeling. I think they have been contracting out since the 60's.
Anyway, I played a Conde from the late 60's that had 2 addresses on the label. Gravina, AND Atocha....so they have had 2 store locations for a long time. The earliest Felipe V guitar I have ever seen was from 1985, and was a fantastic instrument, with a unique signature "Felipe Conde". Faustino died 1988, and Mariano died 89.
RE: Conde / Sobrinos Headstock and b... (in reply to El Polaco)
How does one know if it is a "Faustino" or a "Mariano" Conde? I wonder if there really is such a thing as either. Perhaps it is just wishful thinking by owners OR marketing by sellers.
It seems to me that they just varied their carving of the media luna headstock over the years along with bracing patterns and body shape. The headstock shapes of present day Condes (form the three shops) seem to be different- with the Gravina and Atocha shop being more similar- as far as I can tell from photos.
There has been discussions here about the various Condes ,etc and seems like people think they have been contracting out since the 60's:
RE: Conde / Sobrinos Headstock and b... (in reply to El Polaco)
It might not be realistic to ascribe a 60's or 70's Conde to one of the brothers (Faustino or Mario) unless you went into the workshop every day and watched it being made. Madrid was filling up with guitarists in the 60's. Paco moved there from Algeciras with his parents and the rest of the family, the Habicuelas arrived from Granada, etc and the demand for flamenco guitars was increasing. The Conde flamenco guitars were the best that could be obtained in Madrid and the first choice for most professionals. The word “obtained” is significant – for example you could still buy a wonderful guitar from Arcangel Fernadez at the start of the 60's but you had to go on the waiting list and eventually all his output was dedicated to Japan. There was a plentiful supply of Condes to be had - more than could have been produced by a couple of luthiers. The brothers who collabaorated in in the production had helpers and a factory in Pozuela de Alarcon. The signed guitars were intended to be the best and the media luna versions usually had cosmetically better wood. They were signed with a brand name, not the name of a luthier. If you have a good guitar from that time that has survived in playable condition you are lucky. You have a piece of history – the guitar that helped define the flamenco sound of this period. There’s no need to get hung up on who might have made it. Guitars made in this period had some consistent and recognisable "Conde" features (apart from the head). In the 80's, in the period leading up to the death of the brothers this consistency seemed to disappear - who knows who was making the guitars at this time. Rob
RE: Conde / Sobrinos Headstock and b... (in reply to RobJe)
I am curious regarding a couple of Conde labels from two guitars I have seen.
First of all, a friend has an early 70's Conde with a media luna peghead that has a Sobrinos de Eststo label with with a date, but no signature.
Secondly, another acquaintance has a late 70's Conde with a media luna headstock that has a Hermanos Conde label with with a date, but no signature.
Both labels are red/brown printing on a white label like the ones shown in the picture. I am curious to know if they are a lower level media luna that those with the signatures. My friend with the media luna peghead seems to think so. Does anyone have any insight?
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RE: Conde / Sobrinos Headstock and b... (in reply to malakka)
There are plenty of anomalies and possible explanations. Here are a few 1. The bros are away on holiday and some guitars come back from being varnished at the Pozuela factory. Someone comes into the shop and wants to buy one and the helper sticks the date on a label but doesn’t have the authority to sign it. 2. It’s a fake. 3. It is a lower quality guitar so the label is correct – it’s just that someone faked the media luna headstock at a later date. The pictures show some other puzzling labels. 1. Look at the spacing of the letters and count the number of roses across the label. This label looks like a crude fake. The guitar has a media luna headstock. The rosette and bridge are not typical of Condes of this period. 2. The label is typical of one of the lower quality modelso of this period, as is the simple rosette, but the guitar has a media luna headstock. Rob
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Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Conde / Sobrinos Headstock and b... (in reply to El Polaco)
Only thing to add is that Conde guitars were always popular cuz of their sound and playability. Sure there are more valuable guitars, but they were not often picked cuz of price and availability perhaps. I know one guy who recently tried an Arcangel blanca, but despite the enormous difference in price tag, prefered the sound and feel of an 80's era conde next to it. And knowing this person I probably would have chosen the same way myself. But Arcangel is more collectable that is all the makes the difference in price.
I would not worry so much if all my best guitars were made by Yamaha. They still play and sound the best to me.
RE: Conde / Sobrinos Headstock and b... (in reply to TANúñez)
Hey Sen~or Nunez; This is a very, very late response; [ like 2 years-LOL] to your comment about my '72 Faustino Conde 'for sale'...I hate to tell you this Tommy; but it is no longer 'for sale'... Here's a pic of "Miss Flamenco" '72 & '73 Take care Bud! KABONNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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RE: Conde / Sobrinos Headstock and b... (in reply to TANúñez)
Hey Tom; You're an early riser like me... The '72 ended up going to Italy. They buyer is a big collector. After receiving the '72 he emailed me & said what I've been saying all along: "This guitar is AMAZING!" He was absolutely thrilled with it! I still have my '73 though. Equally great guitar; but in a very different way. I now have a line on a '74 Conde peghead...(Oh Boy!) Cheers; Rudy PS- I see you have the 2010 Sigurdson Koa "Conde Homage" at your place for sale. Interesting...
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