warping solera

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warping solera

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paul.troutfisher

Posts: 161
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Danville, CA

warping solera

Ok, for I've finally started my first guitar. I'm following the Roy Courtnall book.

So, just finished my solera and already have my first problem. I used good flat 3/4" MDF to start with. Cut to shape, drilled the holes/slots for the blocking and clamps, dished out the lower bout, and planed down the neck for the 3mm relief. Now I see that the solera is warped (concave into the dished bout side).

I don't see how/why the warping happened, guessing it must have to do with the relief of stress from the dishing & neck planing. I'm wondering if others have had this kind of problem with MDF and if they use plywood instead (would have thought MDF would stay truer). Also, wondering if I could just glue another peace of MDF onto the back (now 1.5" thick) to try to true it up.

- Would a 1.5" thick solera be problematic later on in the build cycle?
- suggestions?

thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 27 2011 17:47:15

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

Although MDF is easy to scoop out for the dish it is probably not the best choice to make the entire solera from it. I would glue it to some good high grade plywood and don't worry the 1.5" thickness won't be an issue.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 27 2011 18:36:54

jstelzer

Posts: 30
Joined: Dec. 14 2008

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

Two layers of 3/4" MDF are better than one if you don't have additional stiffners fastened underneath the solera.
MDF will warp from humidity and weight if the cut surfaces are left unprotected. I apply 2 coats of 1 lb. cut shellac to fresh cut surfaces as soon as possible. For the solera and any fixtures that are used for gluing, I also add a coat of water based Poly Urethane.

When you apply the shellac to the MDF, note how the cut surfaces will immediately suck in the shellac as opposed to the smooth flat (face) surfaces .. then visualize the shellac as moist air being sucked in to those areas.

I don't have stiffners attached to the bottom of my solera .. when I need clearance for clamping, I just place it on top of 2 boards reserved for that purpose.

Jim in La Pine

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 28 2011 5:27:00

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

Maybe your solera tells you that you have to many humidity changes?? I´ve never had problems with mdf.

Btw. Where do you fish trout?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 28 2011 7:52:10

paul.troutfisher

Posts: 161
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Danville, CA

RE: warping solera (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

You are right, I do have a humidity problem. My shop has sliding barn doors (don't seal tight). It will be fine come spring/summer/fall, but not so good right now.

I live and fish in Northern CA. Been to Montana and Idaho a couple of times too. Don't know if you know the CA rivers, but fished the McCloud, Sac (upper/lower) Yuba, Stanislaus, Walkers, Calaveras, etc..... Used to backpack up into the high country and fish the creeks/lakes. This was some of the best sight fishing I've ever experienced. But, alas, they aren't stocking up high anymore and the rainbows can't reproduce naturally up there - so the fishing has really fallen off.

Trying to get my boys 12/11 fired about fishing, but they just don't have the bug.

How about yourself?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 28 2011 14:03:59

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

No fishing here in South Spain. When I was a kid I caught thousands of perches. Pretty big ones up to 1,5kg. Later Some Brook trout with the fly. Some sea fishing after Sea trout, Cod etc. All in Denmark and Sweden. But its many years ago. I kinda lost the bug I need clean nature in order to fish and its non exixtant where I live.

Be carefull with humidity. It totally spoils the fun of building guitars

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 28 2011 18:39:28

paul.troutfisher

Posts: 161
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Danville, CA

RE: warping solera (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

What do you think is a reasonable workable range for humidity? Ours can vary greatly in the winter from say 50% to 90%. It would desirable to just dehumidify and limit the upper end. Would 50 to 70 be tight enough?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 28 2011 19:00:59

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

I work at 50% here in England, but many people specify 45%.

If I were you, I'd go to great lengths to keep an upper limit of 55%. I think that would be ok

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 7:17:38

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

The rule of thumb is between 40 - 60% 70% is to high. I stay around 50% plus minus 5%.
But as always there´s a difference between being a pro and building for one self. You can take more risks because you dont have clients. But if your MDF warps, its telling you something.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 8:56:02

estebanana

Posts: 9370
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

No trout fishing in Spain? que lastima.

Where do you live Paul? I live in Oakland.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 1:46:15

paul.troutfisher

Posts: 161
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Danville, CA

RE: warping solera (in reply to estebanana)

I live in Danville Stephen.

I've included a few shots of my workshop. I designed it myself, and built it with the help of my brother in law, built the sliding doors too. It really is my dream shop.

You can see that the sliding doors do not lend themselves to tight seals. I really stressed over this decision, but wanted to create that classic barn look. Pretty sure that I can get it sealed up a bit more, and expect I'll be able to hold the humidity a bit tigher, once I get a dehumidifier in there.

I designed the assembly table specifically for guitar building. The vertical slots are for material and form storage. My wife is getting a bit anxious that I keep making tables, jigs, doors, etc for the shop and have yet to complete my sons dresser:)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 3:45:58

paul.troutfisher

Posts: 161
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Danville, CA

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

here's the other pic.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 3:47:36

paul.troutfisher

Posts: 161
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Danville, CA

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

and the "money shot" :)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 3:49:19

jstelzer

Posts: 30
Joined: Dec. 14 2008

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

Well done trout fisher. That is a shop to be proud of.

My shop is an attached garage that has never contained and will never contain a vehicle.
Where I live is labeled as High Desert .. and .. fortunately the humidity problems are easier to control. Mostly, I need to add humidity in the winter and that is easily done with an inexpensive humidifier. When I built the place I envisioned a shop as neat and organized as yours. But, I muddled around and cut corners that I didn't need to and ended up with a shop that works .. tho is not nearly as photogenic or easy to move around in as yours.

You must have a really good and understanding wife .. be sure to take good care of her.

This view of the river is a 15 minute walk from my place .. trout fishing is not the same as it was years ago, but there are still some big browns left that have survived the river otters and limited water flow.

Jim in La Pine

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 6:36:21

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

Thats a wonderfull shop. If it was mine, I would build a nice little rowing boat in there (lapstrake cedar) and go fishing trouts.

I´m pretty sure that you could make some kind of removable fill in for that sliding door

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 7:45:04

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

I fish for jewfish off the beach here ( mulloway ) . An understanding wife and a shop like that , bless your future.

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Peace.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 7:49:10

paul.troutfisher

Posts: 161
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Danville, CA

RE: warping solera (in reply to jstelzer)

Oh boy, if I had a river like that 15mins walk from my house........ that's just beautiful Jim. Looks like good dry fly fishing. Where is La Pine?

paul

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 13:40:32

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

Not sure if it's possible with your layout or not, maybe you could create a small clean room for assembly and finishing. A small room will be lot easier to control the humidity in and a window with natural light would be ideal.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 15:31:37

jstelzer

Posts: 30
Joined: Dec. 14 2008

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

Paul,
La Pine is located in Central Oregon, roughly 25 miles south of Bend, OR. Fly fishing is big here; big enough to support 3 different tackle shops devoted soley to the art. There are also a lot of beautiful lakes within a 20 - 30 minute drive. The mountain peak in the background of the photo is Paulina .. if you enjoy looking at pictures of big trout .. google: paulina lake oregon + trophy brown trout. I do remind myself every day how fortunate I am to be living here.

I like Sean's idea for a small assembly room. You will be amazed at how many gallons of water is contained in the air of a shop your size.

Jim in La Pine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 17:45:58

Gimar Yestra

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
From: The Netherlands

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

im in the Netherlands, last winter humidity went down to +-35% in my shop, in the summer it easily goes up to 80 or even higher.

are there small machines available to get a controlled humidity level??
Or any other ways to control humidity? atleast to some degree.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2011 2:05:16

jstelzer

Posts: 30
Joined: Dec. 14 2008

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

I'm using a Vick's Ultrasonic Humidifier that has a 20 hour operation cycle. It's made in China and is probably sold under other brand names. Kaz Incorporated is the distributing company. It is a small machine and will raise the humidity in my shop from 35% RH to 42% RH overnight in a temperature range of 62-64 F. It is inexpensive and I have seen music shops in town that use them. I have used others and consider this one to be the best. I seldom need to remove humidity .. but when I do .. it is in the summer and I simply open the doors during the hot part of the day.
I have settled on 42% RH for my working humidity level.

Jim in La Pine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2011 4:33:46

estebanana

Posts: 9370
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: warping solera (in reply to paul.troutfisher)

Until you posted those pictures I thought La Pine' was a small town somewhere in Latin America. ;)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2011 5:17:31

paul.troutfisher

Posts: 161
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Danville, CA

RE: warping solera (in reply to Gimar Yestra)

Dandy makes an a good dehumidifiers. The 60 pint does 1.8 L/KwHr. Still these are not cheap to run - at least in California where we pay $0.35+ per KwHr.

I for one really need to seal up my shop before I fire one of these up, else I'll just be handing over piles on money to my electrical company.

Humidifiers on the other hand use little electricity.

Paul

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2011 15:01:05