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Ramon de Algeciras...what if?   You are logged in as Guest
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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

Ramon de Algeciras...what if? 
OK...stirring it again.

I saw Ramon play in a Flamenco show way back in the very early 70's in Madrid and was surprised to hear him play quite a few Paco "classic" Bulerias falsetas extremely well and naturally, but in his own style.

I was just thinking....

Was Ramon just playing "copies" of his kid brother?

Or do you think it's possible that some of these falsetas were in fact the original ideas of Ramon?

Or maybe both?

After all...the two brothers worked together and toured together a lot in the early days.

Surely they must have exchanged ideas much like Lennon/McCartney rather than just one of them developing completely separately?

Ramon being the much older brother would hardly claim the credit over his kid brother, whom he was very proud of and enthusiastic about his technical ability and emerging fame?

Discuss...

(PS: No one mention this to "The Prof", lest he go into hyperventilation.. )



cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2011 18:10:27
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Ramon de Algeciras...what if? (in reply to Ron.M) 
dont know about Ramon, but I wouldnt have a problem with my little brother playing my falsetas coz he plays the piano, not guitar

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2011 19:19:14
 
prd1

 

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RE: Ramon de Algeciras...what if? (in reply to Ron.M) 
In the early 70s Paco's bulerias hadn't become classics - 'classicness' was attained over many years in the future and Paco blossomed more than his sibling.

Pretty similar situation to Andy and Eddy Gray - Andy had a handful more caps for Scotland than his brother but has become one of the most well known names in the football world - but who is Eddie?

Caveat No 1...Eddie hasn't sold his socks to Sky or waved a phallic microphone in anyones face!!!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2011 20:02:46
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
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From: Scotland

RE: Ramon de Algeciras...what if? (in reply to prd1) 
quote:

In the early 70s Paco's bulerias hadn't become classics - 'classicness' was attained over many years in the future


Well OK...then... the falsetas which went on to become Paco classics, if you want to be precise...

Also note the tap-tap style of footapping...did he learn that from Paco too?

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2011 20:12:35
 
prd1

 

Posts: 206
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RE: Ramon de Algeciras...what if? (in reply to Ron.M) 
I imagine they both learn't the tap-tap from older flamenco palyers -diego del Gastor?



The first time I heard some of these falsetas and techinques was on Pata Negra's blues de la frontera - only many years later did I realise that they were reworked!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2011 20:32:08
 
Doitsujin

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RE: Ramon de Algeciras...what if? (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

Was Ramon just playing "copies" of his kid brother?

Or do you think it's possible that some of these falsetas were in fact the original ideas of Ramon?


Find the answers at 2.25 min XD

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2011 21:00:21
 
bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Ramon de Algeciras...what if? (in reply to Doitsujin) 
I guess it's very likely that quite a few of the material Paco played camo from his brother.
There are a lot of members around here who know more about flamenco, the gitano families and their way of sharing and spreading their music, but as far as I experienced it, it is quite normal that guitarists take material from other family members and play it in public - maybe to avoid competition within the family.

I met a Juan Fernández who showed me his name printed on the backside of a recording I didn't know before that featured Tomatito as accompanist.I'm not sure if the disc was ever published. He seemed to be the composer of some falsetas played on the recording. At least he could play everything very, very well.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2011 21:18:26
 
Paul Magnussen

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From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Ramon de Algeciras...what if? (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

Or do you think it's possible that some of these falsetas were in fact the original ideas of Ramon?


Ramón's early style was quite unlike Paco's, and owed more to Ricardo. He was, in fact a fine guitarist in his own right. Later — accompanying Camarón for instance — he sounded like a copy of Paco.

Someone once told me that being Paco's brother had destroyed him. How exaggerated this is, or not, I'm not in a position to judge.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2011 3:29:47
 
NormanKliman

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RE: Ramon de Algeciras...what if? (in reply to Ron.M) 
Hi Ron,

Interesting subject for discussion, although I don't think we'll be able to draw any conclusions or even put forth sound theories without input from a reliable source who knew Ramón well. I read somewhere that Ramón taught Paco the falsetas of Niño Ricardo (which he learned from the source) and was amazed to see how quickly his little brother not only learned the falsetas but came up with his own variations. If the anecdote is true, it may be indicative of Paco's creative capacity (no doubt there as far as I'm concerned) and may suggest that Ramón preferred not to modify Ricardo's falsetas, at least at that early stage of his development.

My guess is that Ramón came up with a few ideas of his own every once in a while, as we all do, and that he would show them to Paco, who would probably take a stonger liking to them than most others because they were brothers. Insofar as proportions of contribution, Paco is obviously in another league compared to anyone else we've ever heard, and if Ramón's talent were on a similar level, we probably would have seen some indication of that. Just taking a guess.

quote:

I imagine they both learn't the tap-tap from older flamenco palyers -diego del Gastor?

Niño Ricardo tapped like that and was far more influential that Diego. In the interview in Rito y Geografía, Diego even cited Ricardo as one of his influences.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2011 7:10:50
 
Pimientito

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From: Marbella

RE: Ramon de Algeciras...what if? (in reply to NormanKliman) 
I think people underestimate what a great guitarist Ramon de Algeciras was. I have a fair number of recordings of him playing with Juan Maya Marote (who he did a lot of duet work) and solo playing. If it wasnt for his younger brother, Ramon would have been one of the more famous players of his day. It wasnt that he just came up with a couple of his own falsetas....he had his own repertoire and a lot of original material. Imagine getting that good and having your younger brother become the best in the world at your art!

Being the older brother its almost impossible to believe that Paco didnt at least copy or rework some of his falsetas. Far from destroying Ramon, Paco recorded and toured the world with him for years and made him wealthy.

Im sure it must be annoying to have your little brother be much better than you at anything and who knows what Ramon felt about having to take a second place next to Paco on stage. The fact is Paco could have used anyone he wanted and he chose Ramon. There couldnt have been that much bad feeling and considering the family background they must have been pleased to be earning so much from flamenco, an actvity that previously could only earn a few pesetas per night.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2011 9:28:03
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2011 15:19:44
 
xirdneH_imiJ

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From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Ramon de Algeciras...what if? (in reply to Guest) 
popcorn time
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2011 15:24:12
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Ramon de Algeciras...what if? (in reply to Ron.M) 
I agree that Ramon was a great flamenco guitarist, and Paco himself has said that after his father, Ramon was his maestro when he was young which is only natural.

I truly doubt though that there are other players who are as good as Paco at what Paco does. Part of Paco's genius is both creating and fulfilling the image of a flamenco guitar god. I think he created the myth himself, unintentionally, but his playing can back it up. Of course that does not mean that there aren't other guitarists who are incredible. It's probably more about developing one's own sound, and of course that is the hardest thing to do.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2011 15:29:17
 
XXX

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RE: Ramon de Algeciras...what if? (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito
I think it is an insult to all the great players out there (some unknown) to mythologize Paco.


It is actually the great players themselves that mythologize Paco in all the interviews i have read/heard till now, and that makes me sometimes wonder coz i think in many aspects of playing they can match up with Paco, or even surpass him.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2011 15:33:48
 
Harry

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From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Ramon de Algeciras...what if? (in reply to XXX) 
I think the reason they mythologize him is that from Paco to Vicente there is a shorter leap than from Sabicas to Paco in terms of creativity, musicality, and technique. In fact some might say there is no forward movement at all. It is natural for students to mythologize their master, even as they get closer to him in terms of mastery.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2011 15:38:01
 
XXX

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RE: Ramon de Algeciras...what if? (in reply to Harry) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry

I think the reason they mythologize him is that from Paco to Vicente there is a shorter leap than from Sabicas to Paco in terms of creativity, musicality, and technique.


Thats true but i find it hard to compare these times with nowadays coz in the 70s and 80s music generally was changing/developing alot. It has not only to do with Paco but at least equally so with social changes IMO. I also find the new generation of young flamencos nowadays is more creative than Vicente in the 90s. I consider De Mi Corazon almost as a classic.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2011 15:43:14
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2011 21:41:07
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