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I would call it C#m7#5. However '#5' is usually used to describe altered dominants, so maybe it's better to call it C#m7b13 - somebody will know better than me.
Either way it's basically a C#m7, only the 5 has been shifted to the b6.
The main key common in flamenco you'd use this in would be E major (e.g. Alegria, or Minera using G# phryg.). For instance you could follow it with the next logical chord below it:
E-X A-2 D-6 G-2 B-4 E-2
Then some sort of A, some sort of B7, back home to E.
Great! Okay so I am listening to the track again and its a buleria but the root is G# so... this means its in key of E right? So this chord being a C#m can go to B, A, then G# = Cadence?
But since its a little different sounding, does the chords have to be extended also? The issue is I am not that well versed in jazz theory but this chord going that cadence feels like the cadence needed to be jazzy... Ughhh headache!
that it is,,, in mclaughlin tunes such as 'follow your heart' this voicing is over an open E pedal turning it into an Esus [add 6] chord...he uses this chord alot as the 'shape' can be moved along the neck of the guitar implying a 'quartal' modal type harmony
still guess it depends on function ie C#m7 to C#m7 [#5 or b6 or b13] to C#m6 or 13 ...almost 'james bond ish''..common in jazz. ie 'cry me a river' ie 4th string voice leading G# to A to A#
as a single voicing, ... it is also an inversion of Amaj9 as it 'sounds' brighter...more major than minor 'sound'...guess it's all relative to what came before and after...
it is also an an Atriad over an Etriad [inverted...]
saying all this.. it's function in relation to the chord/key G#7b9 seems to be one more as 'bright' Minor [C#m] as opposed to an inversion of a b2 PHYGIAN chord ie Amaj
in this case to me anyway it 'SOUNDS' more like a C# m7 type chord. sometimes written as C#m7 [b6] or C#m7 [b13] or C#m7#5 or even Amaj9/C# depending on what real book your using and the transcriber's description
more used to hearing an A7#11 [b5] dominant cadence sound in bulerias etc. though i'm sure it's not always the case...
not sure who said it but describing sounds in words is a bit like dancing to describe architecture...
When describing a minor chord isn't it understood that the 6th (13th) is flat? A occurs naturally in C#minor.
mmm...interesting going on my jazz background here.. a C#m6 is generally voiced with an A# which i guess makes it relative to the key of Bmajor or Elydian
the note A in 'jazz speak' is generally referred to as a #5, ' ..understanding the fifth can be placed on top of the voicing as melody...yes?
...so looking through the web it most commonly referred to as minor b6 chord that allows both the pitch A in lower voicing and the fifth G# in higher but that can vary from site to site...
diatonically the chord is built/extended from the secondary minor not the relative [6th]...or dorian mode if you like...as it tends to function with the 5 chord ie 2-5-1 cadence or F#m6-B7-Emaj or C#m6-F#7-Bmaj you sholud also notice theres not alot between the minor 6th chord and the Dominant in sound ...it's kind of a suspended dominant chord...[alegrias]
Another view is that the Lydian mode is the TRUE major scale from earlier times..THE FIRST MODE not the fourth...whether you want to take this onboard is another issue...i'll try to find a few links on this... ...also beyond my scope of explanation.....to me a lydian scale just functions better over a major 7th chord...and is also the natural way of building and extending chords in thirds...to our modern ear anyway...#11's etc this also applies to dominant chords and lydian dominant scales...[a mode of the melodic minor]
guess also that way our 'relative' minor 6th chord makes sense....C# E G# A#..well to me anyway...
feel i'm digging a big hole here!
quote:
And...isn't the b in bII implied by the phrygian mode?
yes again semantics in your bulerias example the 'A' chord is a 2nd...so my bad...yep phygian implies b2nd...
Just curious AlVal. When describing a minor chord isn't it understood that the 6th (13th) is flat? A occurs naturally in C#minor.
And...isn't the b in bII implied by the phrygian mode?
Extensions are described with numbers based on the major or ionian scale. 13579 11 13 in C# would be all sharps. So you have to flat each one that is natural. 1b35b7b13 as would occur in such a chord.
I agree about bII for phrygian KEY because MODES don't use functioning harmony as described by roman numerals, caps or lower case (vs just numbers for harmony). But the concept of phrygian as a KEY is unique to flamenco music, so as you can imagine not part of jazz pop or classical vocab. And since theory is not a normal way to talk flamenco, we need to understand the idea of describing flamenco harmony as I II III iv v(little 0) VI vii....is also very unique and not "standard" or "implied" to anyone except me and manolo sanclucar and romerito.
thanks Romerito and Ricardo for the heads up on phygian harmony..more thinking [or less] to be done...
quote:
is also very unique and not "standard" or "implied" to anyone except me and manolo sanclucar and romerito
the phrygian chromatic concept of tonal organization?... guess i'm keen on jason's idea of a flamenco real book...where pieces are notated in a 'standard' way..ie melody and chord symbols... guess 'jazz harmony and voicings' has also been one of the most influential additions to flamenco guitar over the last 40 years..but maybe should'nt be described in those [jazz] terms....might be time to read Manolo Sanlúcar's books...???
Printable Version
...almost 'james bond ish''..common in jazz. ie 'cry me a river' ie 4th string voice leading G# to A to A# 
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