Chord Help!

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Chord Help!

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Alonte

Posts: 214
Joined: Dec. 2 2008

Chord Help!

I hate to ask another chord question but Ive been seeing this SHAPE a lot lately and can't figure out what chord it is and how to use it.

E-X
A-4
D-7
G-4
B-5
E-4

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 23:03:28

aloysius

Posts: 233
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
From: Adelaide, Australia

RE: Chord Help! (in reply to Alonte)

I would call it C#m7#5. However '#5' is usually used to describe altered dominants, so maybe it's better to call it C#m7b13 - somebody will know better than me.

Either way it's basically a C#m7, only the 5 has been shifted to the b6.

The main key common in flamenco you'd use this in would be E major (e.g. Alegria, or Minera using G# phryg.).
For instance you could follow it with the next logical chord below it:

E-X
A-2
D-6
G-2
B-4
E-2

Then some sort of A, some sort of B7, back home to E.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 23:53:48

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Chord Help! (in reply to Alonte)

Amaj9

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2011 0:23:16

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2011 5:54:11

Alonte

Posts: 214
Joined: Dec. 2 2008

RE: Chord Help! (in reply to Alonte)

Great! Okay so I am listening to the track again and its a buleria but the root is G# so... this means its in key of E right? So this chord being a C#m can go to B, A, then G# = Cadence?

But since its a little different sounding, does the chords have to be extended also? The issue is I am not that well versed in jazz theory but this chord going that cadence feels like the cadence needed to be jazzy... Ughhh headache!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2011 6:33:23

Alonte

Posts: 214
Joined: Dec. 2 2008

RE: Chord Help! (in reply to Alonte)

Nina Pastori's Vagabundo is the culprit.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2011 6:34:24

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Chord Help! (in reply to Alonte)

Amaj9 is correct (AC#EG#B) in first inversion. A favorite Mclaughlin voicing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2011 16:25:53

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2011 5:21:25

Guest

RE: Chord Help! (in reply to Alonte)

quote:

A favorite Mclaughlin voicing.

that it is,,,
in mclaughlin tunes such as 'follow your heart' this voicing is over an open E pedal turning it into an Esus [add 6] chord...he uses this chord alot as the 'shape' can be moved along the neck of the guitar implying a 'quartal' modal type harmony

still guess it depends on function
ie
C#m7 to C#m7 [#5 or b6 or b13] to C#m6 or 13

...almost 'james bond ish''..common in jazz. ie 'cry me a river' ie 4th string voice leading G# to A to A#

as a single voicing, ... it is also an inversion of Amaj9 as it 'sounds' brighter...more major than minor 'sound'...guess it's all relative to what came before and after...

it is also an an Atriad over an Etriad [inverted...]

saying all this..
it's function in relation to the chord/key G#7b9 seems to be one more as 'bright' Minor [C#m] as opposed to an inversion of a b2 PHYGIAN chord ie Amaj

in this case to me anyway it 'SOUNDS' more like a C# m7 type chord. sometimes written as C#m7 [b6] or C#m7 [b13] or C#m7#5 or even Amaj9/C# depending on what real book your using and the transcriber's description

more used to hearing an A7#11 [b5] dominant cadence sound in bulerias etc. though i'm sure it's not always the case...

not sure who said it but describing sounds in words is a bit like dancing to describe architecture...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2011 5:57:14

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2011 8:40:35

Guest

RE: Chord Help! (in reply to Guest)

quote:

When describing a minor chord isn't it understood that the 6th (13th) is flat? A occurs naturally in C#minor.

mmm...interesting
going on my jazz background here..
a C#m6 is generally voiced with an A#
which i guess makes it relative to the key of Bmajor or Elydian

the note A in 'jazz speak' is generally referred to as a #5, ' ..understanding the fifth can be placed on top of the voicing as melody...yes?

...so looking through the web it most commonly referred to as minor b6 chord that allows both the pitch A in lower voicing and the fifth G# in higher but that can vary from site to site...

diatonically the chord is built/extended from the secondary minor not the relative [6th]...or dorian mode if you like...as it tends to function with the 5 chord ie 2-5-1 cadence or F#m6-B7-Emaj or C#m6-F#7-Bmaj
you sholud also notice theres not alot between the minor 6th chord and the Dominant in sound ...it's kind of a suspended dominant chord...[alegrias]

Another view is that the Lydian mode is the TRUE major scale from earlier times..THE FIRST MODE not the fourth...whether you want to take this onboard is another issue...i'll try to find a few links on this...
...also beyond my scope of explanation.....to me a lydian scale just functions better over a major 7th chord...and is also the natural way of building and extending chords in thirds...to our modern ear anyway...#11's etc
this also applies to dominant chords and lydian dominant scales...[a mode of the melodic minor]

guess also that way our 'relative' minor 6th chord makes sense....C# E G# A#..well to me anyway...

feel i'm digging a big hole here!

quote:

And...isn't the b in bII implied by the phrygian mode?

yes
again semantics
in your bulerias example the 'A' chord is a 2nd...so my bad...yep phygian implies b2nd...

thanks for the post...and the source

http://www.lydianchromaticconcept.com/faq.html

but this book is awesome...bad cover but applies to any music on guitar..
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001927QG4/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=1278548962&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0881885894&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1SKVDK901FQAQKMCMB7T

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2011 9:10:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Chord Help! (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Just curious AlVal. When describing a minor chord isn't it understood that the 6th (13th) is flat? A occurs naturally in C#minor.

And...isn't the b in bII implied by the phrygian mode?

Extensions are described with numbers based on the major or ionian scale. 13579 11 13 in C# would be all sharps. So you have to flat each one that is natural. 1b35b7b13 as would occur in such a chord.

I agree about bII for phrygian KEY because MODES don't use functioning harmony as described by roman numerals, caps or lower case (vs just numbers for harmony). But the concept of phrygian as a KEY is unique to flamenco music, so as you can imagine not part of jazz pop or classical vocab. And since theory is not a normal way to talk flamenco, we need to understand the idea of describing flamenco harmony as I II III iv v(little 0) VI vii....is also very unique and not "standard" or "implied" to anyone except me and manolo sanclucar and romerito.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2011 20:59:18

Guest

RE: Chord Help! (in reply to Ricardo)

thanks Romerito and Ricardo for the heads up on phygian harmony..more thinking [or less] to be done...

quote:

is also very unique and not "standard" or "implied" to anyone except me and manolo sanclucar and romerito

the phrygian chromatic concept of tonal organization?...
guess i'm keen on jason's idea of a flamenco real book...where pieces are notated in a 'standard' way..ie melody and chord symbols...
guess 'jazz harmony and voicings' has also been one of the most influential additions to flamenco guitar over the last 40 years..but maybe should'nt be described in those [jazz] terms....might be time to read Manolo Sanlúcar's books...???

link to real book idea...