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Egypt Riots
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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 RE: Egypt Riots (in reply to sean65)
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LOL! Sean...
These despots and dictators just don't get it.
They honestly think they were delivered by God to rule their country and any opposition or difference in views need to be met with lethal force.
They live in a dream, like the time Saddam wrote that crazy book about "The great leader who loved all his people and all his people loved him..."
Of course, all the Iraqi literati agreed that the book was sensational and was one of the wonders of the world and equally comparable with the great Persian poets and writers of history. 
Ahmadinejad was actually quite an interesting and sane character when he first got into office, but as anyone can see, he's totally lost it now, being overwhelmed by the power and riches over the years.
For sure, he will not be going easily and certainly not because of some stupid and trivial reason, like getting voted out of office.
A number of years ago there was a great Quentin Crisp programme on TV where he was talking about Eva Peron.
He said she was making a public speech to a million or more people who were enthralled with her style and delivery.
At a high point in the speech she raised her arms up and shouted with passion..
"We, the shirtless of Argentina..."
And at the same time, a dozen or so solid gold bracelets slid down her arms, clanking together like railway trucks in a marshalling yard...
cheers,
Ron
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Date Feb. 19 2011 20:00:57
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Munin
Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong
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RE: Egypt Riots (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M
LOL! Sean...
These despots and dictators just don't get it.
They honestly think they were delivered by God to rule their country and any opposition or difference in views need to be met with lethal force.
They live in a dream, like the time Saddam wrote that crazy book about "The great leader who loved all his people and all his people loved him..."
Of course, all the Iraqi literati agreed that the book was sensational and was one of the wonders of the world and equally comparable with the great Persian poets and writers of history.
Ahmadinejad was actually quite an interesting and sane character when he first got into office, but as anyone can see, he's totally lost it now, being overwhelmed by the power and riches over the years.
For sure, he will not be going easily and certainly not because of some stupid and trivial reason, like getting voted out of office.
A number of years ago there was a great Quentin Crisp programme on TV where he was talking about Eva Peron.
He said she was making a public speech to a million or more people who were enthralled with her style and delivery.
At a high point in the speech she raised her arms up and shouted with passion..
"We, the shirtless of Argentina..."
And at the same time, a dozen or so solid gold bracelets slid down her arms, clanking together like railway trucks in a marshalling yard...
cheers,
Ron
Actually Ron, I wonder how many dictators truly believe that themselves and how many just perpetuate it in the minds of their countrymen so they can keep the power they have..
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Date Feb. 25 2011 8:37:05
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Egypt Riots (in reply to Ron.M)
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Backgrounds are getting constantly harder to grasp, as the path of money is steadily diverting in a world of less national but international corporations.
At times there even occure things that truely surprise me.
Like very late policies on dictators´funds.
Instead of letting ben Ali´s or Mubarak´s "savings" officially alone, so that huge slices could be blackmailed off during the exiling process, western politicis decided to freeze these dictators´bank accounts abroad.
I find this extremely and positively remarkable ( provided this money will actually be retunred to the looted states )!!
Especially considering what kind of sums it is about.
( Mubarak alone is being said to have robbed / put aside a freaking 70 billion $. That is more than Gates or Buffet ever owned!)
-
Anyway, it felt very disappointing reading that the turmoils in Near East were to be instigated by American undercover organisations.
Saddened by the notion that suppressed Near East populations would have been sturdily submissive for so many decades, yet recently gotten to move out of all by alien organisation and bribe investment in the dimensions of a couple hundred million $ per country.
Saddened by the notion that these revolutions might only serve stronging traditional Amercian exploitation strategies / influence on coming reign puppets, as prophylaxis against rising European and Chinese relationships and business privileges in Arabian oil producing countries.
Now, Gaddafi´s weird speeches are giving me certain hope that the revolts could possibly be authentic.
For, if the turmoil in his country was instigated by foreign powers, he would likely gotten a notion of it and mentioned it in his speeches. ( Which he actually at first did; however, only in an unspecific way.)
With him now claiming that the revolts were fired up by Bin Laden ...
Hopefully it is really the people who without foreign push had stood up to get rid of the regime.
And hopefully such basically being the situation with the revolts in other Arabian countries too.
Even then chances would be slim, very slim, that these countries could achieve autonomous and actually democracy seeking reign ( as unlikely as with the rest of the world ), but potential for authentic movement might only exist if current revolts being actually on a national basis, without alien preparation and triggering with in the end only cheating on the people just one more time.
Ruphus
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Date Feb. 25 2011 12:17:11
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Egypt Riots (in reply to Munin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Munin
Actually Ron, I wonder how many dictators truly believe that themselves and how many just perpetuate it in the minds of their countrymen so they can keep the power they have..
Leadership, be it top managers in the economics, in government, army, educational institutions or judicative, typically aren´t of the most sensitive kind.
After all, they typically are there to pursue personal career on an inconsiderate basis.
They are "succesfull" in capitalist terms for making decisions without deconstructive consideration.
From there, no wonder that intelligence surveys among American leading departments of industry, government and army revealed that there is an IQ in place below average.
Tact mustn´t exactly be what you would expect in such realms, internationally.
Ruphus
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Date Feb. 25 2011 12:30:55
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Egypt Riots (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
These despots and dictators just don't get it.
They honestly think they were delivered by God to rule their country and any opposition or difference in views need to be met with lethal force.
They live in a dream, like the time Saddam wrote that crazy book about "The great leader who loved all his people and all his people loved him..."
Having spent a career in the U.S. diplomatic service, I served in three countries under long-term dictators: The Philippines under Marcos, Chile under Pinochet, and Indonesia under Suharto. I saw all three close up, and it is my opinion that they actually do come to think of themselves as indispensable. All three came to power after their respective countries suffered a period of chaos and upheaval, and at first, all three were popular with a majority of the population. In my opinion, if they had stepped down voluntarily about five or six years before they were forced out (or in the case of Piinochet, voted out), they would still be looked on as national heroes by a majority of the population for having brought order out of chaos. Alas, dictators all think their country cannot do without them, they remain in power too long.
Except the longest-lived dictator of them all: Fidel Castro, who recently turned his dictatorship over to his brother Raul. During his 50 years in power, Castro never held an honest election and showed no qualms about throwing any dissident in prison. It is estimated that during his first ten years in power (1960-1970), the Castro regime executed 10,000 so-called counter-revolutionaries. This is a far greater number than the estimated 3,500 Pinochet executed during his 17 years in power. Yet (and here is the great inconsistency of the left) the left wing in the U.S., Europe, and most of the world embraced Castro while vilifying Pinochet, who killed far fewer, put Chile back on the road to economic prosperity, and (grudgingly) relinquished power when the 1989 plebiscite went against him. Go figure!
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Feb. 25 2011 14:33:48
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Egypt Riots (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
The question is whether a philanthropic or at least pragmatic person could ever be passing selection procedures for US diplomatic services ( in leading position ).
And more even, if such a person´s view on international situations could ever be earnest.
Pinochet looked at by people as "heroe by a" Chilean "majority", and a better person than Castro ... Very certainly so, I guess.
Indeed, go figure who is talking.
Yes, Ruphus, I am talking. I spent three years in Chile, and I know what the majority thought of Pinochet at the beginning, and how that thinking evolved over the long years of his dictatorship. And your snide comment about "whether a pilanthropic or at least pragmatic person could ever be passing selection procedures for U.S. diplomatic servce (in leading position) demonstrates just how ignorant you are concerning the diplomatic selection process and of the history of Chile. I would wager that you have never been to Chile, that you know nothing about the country (either then or now), and that you have absolutely no knowledge of the selection process for the U.S. or any other diplomatic service. You should really stick to things of which you have some knowledge.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Feb. 25 2011 18:15:23
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Egypt Riots (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
It shows very well the level of political discussions and understanding of todays political beings when they start counting corpses.
Deniz,
It is not a matter of "counting corpses." I mentioned the disparity in executions and the length of both dictatorships to illustrate the inconsistency of the U.S., European, and worldwide left: They embraced Castro and vilified Pinochet. Mine was not a defense of Pinochet; rather, it was to point out the left's inconsistency in its approach to each dictator.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Feb. 25 2011 18:19:25
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Egypt Riots (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Yes, Ruphus, I am talking. I spent three years in Chile, and I know what the majority thought of Pinochet at the beginning, and how that thinking evolved over the long years of his dictatorship. And your snide comment about "whether a pilanthropic or at least pragmatic person could ever be passing selection procedures for U.S. diplomatic servce (in leading position) demonstrates just how ignorant you are concerning the diplomatic selection process and of the history of Chile. I would wager that you have never been to Chile, that you know nothing about the country (either then or now), and that you have absolutely no knowledge of the selection process for the U.S. or any other diplomatic service. You should really stick to things of which you have some knowledge.
Bill
Conservatives like to stick to random detail so that pictures mustn´t be dealt with as a whole.
So, you are saying US diplomats and their staff were to be mingling with ordinary people of the countries they are staying in. ( That´s exactly the impression I had e.g. of the attitude in the US embassy in Hamburg. Not.)
Everyone knows of the actual elitist standards of diplomats, and with whom they commonly intercourse.
You can read on Wikileaks how much US diplomats care to / come to actually notice little peoples´thoughts.
What a joke ...
I do not think that one would need to fly over to Chile or apply for US diplomatic service himself first, to have a realistic overview of what´s going on over times since WWII.
Just as German diplomatic service is traditionally widely staffed and networked with elderly nazi and younger right-winger heads ( which in case of your doubts, had been reported on a rough ten years ago, quashed and investigated once again in established press last year ) who have their legacy from after WWII when they and the Vatican helped those Nazis whoever felt it necessary to leave the country with doing so ( - and unmolestedly foster from sweeping Third Reich states funds deposited abroad ) up to their more recent dealings and supportings of diverse regimes.
( You will have definitly have seen them in Chile as brothers in crime; and certainly not exactly as critiques of Pinochet!)
- The history of American foreign affairs as a whole since WWII clearly indicates the nature, hence preselection of cast of mind, of US diplomatic corps.
If you were to tell us that you had been more than a low grade office clerk, yet no neo-conservative in position, you would just paradox about everything one could have distilled from decades of serious press consumption on international affairs.
US foreign policies have wickedly devastated the international situation over the past 6 decades. From sabotaging and / or toppling over whatever could have been an attempt to autonomous and democratic approach anywhere in the world, to installing and / or supporting dictatures over to instigating civil wars and firing up religious fanatism.
But hey, as I am probably completely erring: Why don´t you name us a single US diplomatic action after Sir Truman´s presidency that was actually intended to support democracy somewhere in the world?
I am all ears.
Just don´t mix up labelling with contents.
The latter accounting for you too, Deniz.
Ruphus
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Date Feb. 26 2011 5:22:41
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Egypt Riots (in reply to Ruphus)
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In my original post on the subject, I made some specific comments on the nature of dictators, based on long experience and a great deal of expertise in the three countries I used as examples: The Philippines, Chile, and Indonesia. I then compared the examples of Pinochet and Castro, and the inconsistent attitude U.S., European, and worldwide leftists exhibited toward each dictator.
Ruphus, you have failed to challenge any the assertions in my original post. Rather than challenge what I wrote, you simply vent your spleen on U.S. foreign policy, diplomats (U.S., German, and, one presumes, others), and whatever else seems to enter your mind at any given moment. Rather than challenge the substance of my argument, you arrogantly make ad-hominem attacks against me. In short, you appear to be one of those who, when he is unable to intellectually challenge the point being made, resorts to attacking the person making the point. Until I see a substantive challenge to what I originally wrote, I will no longer respond to one whose arrogance is exceeded only by his ignorance.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Feb. 26 2011 11:03:01
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Egypt Riots (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
In my original post on the subject, I made some specific comments on the nature of dictators, based on long experience and a great deal of expertise in the three countries I used as examples: The Philippines, Chile, and Indonesia. I then compared the examples of Pinochet and Castro, and the inconsistent attitude U.S., European, and worldwide leftists exhibited toward each dictator.
Ruphus, you have failed to challenge any the assertions in my original post. Rather than challenge what I wrote, you simply vent your spleen on U.S. foreign policy, diplomats (U.S., German, and, one presumes, others), and whatever else seems to enter your mind at any given moment. Rather than challenge the substance of my argument, you arrogantly make ad-hominem attacks against me. In short, you appear to be one of those who, when he is unable to intellectually challenge the point being made, resorts to attacking the person making the point. Until I see a substantive challenge to what I originally wrote, I will no longer respond to one whose arrogance is exceeded only by his ignorance.
Bill
While the things I summrized have been colported throughout decades of serious journalism, the one and only "fact" that you delivered very likely will be welcomned demagogy of exil-Cubans in Florida, about whom again I would had deemed it rather appropriate to elaborate the collaborate character that made them flee their homeland.
This is not to say that Castro like about pretty much all states leaders of that time ( right; including oh so civilized western European ones, under whom the "leftists" that neocons like you still grudge wouldn´t all sustain career, health and life ) hadn´t any bodies on his account, neither that all Cuban refugees had come to fleeing for actually self-centered and lowly reason; but you only need to hear average ex-"patriots" in Florida talking to see how irrational distortion and sheer opportunism looks like.
On the other hand, if I was a woman who appreciated living emancipated; if a worker who likes to do without rigid exploitation of his labour by thirds; or just a person who appreciates a lively social life, friendship and solidarity; or someone who likes to walk around at little to no risk of being robbed; I´d certainly prefer living on Cuba than in most areas of the USA. *
- Despite material bottlenecks and a less latent media and mind control.
* And don´t you think I had any grudge against "Americans" and whoever that individually be. In fact I like a lot of things about typical people there, and don´t mix up US politics with people´s attributes.
In the end, Bill: I am not out to offend anyone. Thelike things like intensionally insulting or upsetting never made any sense to me.
But US policies have been the human-despising and exploiting strategy that they are, always out to gear "stability" as they call it. Stability of injustice, corruption, oligarchy, nepotism, social gap and environmental ruthlessness.
And if you did not want to feel insulted by observers who name the nature of the beast, you should not had entered such a humanly miserable though certainly pecuniary gainful job opportunity in the first place.
With your job you have essentially contributed to contemporary insanity on mother earth and to the brink that we are at.
That is how it is, notwithstanding the personal circumstance that I would prefer sounding friendly to you.
Ruphus
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Date Feb. 26 2011 13:26:23
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