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I don't doubt Anders' craftsmanship. I would doubt someone more who made a guitar in 50 or 60 hours, although I know it can be done. I saw Kenny Hill's Reyes prototype that he slapped together in a week and it had the gap you're describing, plus uneven finish and a few other flaws
RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to gerundino63)
Another photo, of the same guitar which I took 5 minuts ago:
So do you still see a gap? remember that this is the internet and that a photo is a relative thing (a sound as well) If you are REALLY picky you could examine my guitar and MAYBE you could find a very small flaw.......... I´m not Mr Perfect. I never said so. If I was my guitars would cost twice I´ve examined guitars from VERY famous builders like Bellidos, Reyes etc with more flaws than this one, but maybe Ruphus would then assume that they were just in their learning process as well????? To Ruphus: You know absolutely nothing about what you write. So please stop insulting me or someone else trying to make a living in a difficult world. What you are, is the typical internet wise guy trying to be something he aint. Its sooooooo poor.
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Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to gerundino63)
my 2 cents on this thread:
max. 4000 - 5000 dollars for the very best luthier guitar (sound, playability, craftmanship, look, etc).
and there are enough opportunities out there.
both new and used guitars.
there is no difference between a very well built 5000 guitar and a 10.000 guitar..... the only difference is that the seller wants 5000 more, because of other reasons, but surely not sound, playability, etc....
but if someone has too much money, well why not. both the builder and the buyer could be happy with a 15.000 dollar guitar.
RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to gerundino63)
Back on topic.
I think Toms guitar looks very nice and I know he has a reputation for building very fine instruments, so as I stated before, the price is fair compared to other builders. How much do you expect to pay for a new Antonio Marín Montero or other very good Spanish builders. The amount of time going into construction of an instrument is something personal and I have a lot of respect for builders who at Toms age have the energy, skill and engagement to continue building.
Arash, Max 5000,- $ for a new Luthier built guitar is just a number. If its what you´ll pay, then thats it, but its not a reflexion of reality. Instead of writing things like that, take a look around and see what guitars cost. Almost all well known makers charge more than what you write or is it an error that you wrote 5000,-$ instead of 5000,-€
What I actually assume is that others might have seen too what was displayed in a photography on the same forum only days ago.
Ruphus seems to be right. There is a small gap showing on the joint.
It may be... but with my joints at this section of the guitar I fit the sides into the neck with no glue. I try and fit them tight enough to look proper but the weather will cause the sides to expand or shrink on occasion and the joint might show a little. This rarely ever happens but on some occasions it has. I remember seeing one of Miguel Rodriguez's guitars that had a real visible gap at this joint but this didn't seem to hurt the value very much :-)
When builders have slight imperfections on their models, most players overlook them if the guitar sounds and plays right. I think it is true that Anders probably builds better cosmetically than Reyes but the Reyes guitars don't seem to lose their value because of it.
The point is that many players regard other things than just cosmetics. So, if Anders builds a great sounding guitar that plays well, then the cosmetics are just icing on the cake, but not necessarily the deciding factor for all players. We do the best we can with the cosmetics but hang the notion that anything is perfect :-)
RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to gerundino63)
The most prolific builder I know of is Robert Ruck. He builds between 30 to 35 a year. I once asked him how it was possible to make that many in a year. He said when he steps into the shop; his mind set is as though he is running a small manufacturing plant. The only help he has is wife doing more mundane task. He builds all his own rosettes and bindings. He does use lacquer, but a lot are French polished.
He told me he is in the shop an average of forty hours per week or less. He takes a quite a bit of time off as well. So if we figure 50 weeks maximum at 40 hours we have 2,000 hours per year. His wife is in the shop full time so let’s add in another 1,000 for her. So 3,000 hours per year equates to 100 hours per guitar with 30 built per year. 100 hours divided by 40 hours per week equals 2 ½ weeks per guitar.
So can you build one in three weeks or less? It can be done, but only by a machine like Ruck. DeVoe does something like 24 a year, so he’s very prolific as well.
So let’s now look at the economics in building. Using Ruck as our example, let’s assume he builds 30 per year. I believe he gets around $5,000 on average (which is high for most builders). So $5,000 times 30 equals $150,000 per year. A lot of dough right? Well not necessarily. He probably has at least $500 per guitar in material cost. So $500 times 30 equals $15,000. You then need to take into account overhead of tool cost and shop expenses. (glue, electricity, etc.). I’m not a builder, but I would estimate at least $100 in overhead per guitar, so that’s another $3,000 (minimum). He works from his home, so let’s not add rent.
So we now take $18,000 off of $150,000 which leaves $132,000. Still a pretty good pile of cash, but remember that’s for both he and his wife. So a pretty descent income but he is not getting rich. Let’s put this into perspective. In the area Ruck lives in, Registered Nurses make $60,000 to $80,000 per year. A mid level executive would make at least $100,000 per year. So if he and his wife were in the main stream workforce they could easily bring in $150,000 or more.
Also keep in mind, most implorers in the US pay for all or a major share of health insurance cost, which for a family like Ruck can easily run $20,000 per year that he has to pay for out of his pocket. He also has to pay the full Social Security taxes on his income being self employed, where an employer pays half in the US. And then take into account most employers have some type of retirement plan that they contribute to, that Ruck has to do out of his pocket.
Doesn’t sound so glamorous now does it? And remember, Ruck is at the very top of the building world as for income. Most would be lucky to be at a third to half his income.
RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to gerundino63)
Just like Tom I build the neck sides joint without glue. no filling etc. Just wood against wood. The joint can work with humidity changes. Thats the traditional Spanish building method. I agree with you Tom, Cosmetics are important especially on poor sounding guitars but if the thing sounds and plays like a dream no player cares. Only the collectors and the perfectionist who dont play very well.
The amount of guitars being produced by luthiers is something personal. I know many who goes to their workshop and stay there office time. They have what I call office attitude towards their craft. Their thing. I have my workshop as a psrt of my house. Its 100% a part of my life. Very often I work 7 days a week for extended periods. I take my time to play enough to have a level which is good enough to fully understand what I build. To me its blood sweat and tears. But I like it. I live for it. Its my way of living and realising myself and I wouldnt change it for anything else. At least not at this moment.
But I only have an output of aroung 10 guitars a year. There must be something wrong with me.
Also keep in mind, most implorers in the US pay for all or a major share of health insurance cost, which for a family like Ruck can easily run $20,000 per year that he has to pay for out of his pocket. He also has to pay the full Social Security taxes on his income being self employed, where an employer pays half in the US. And then take into account most employers have some type of retirement plan that they contribute to, that Ruck has to do out of his pocket.
Yup, Pat...
Also add to that (in the UK anyway) you are entitled to a certain amount of sick-pay and paid holidays and probably get a company car and fuel allowance, mobile phone + account and laptop + internet that you can use in your own time also.
Folk forget about all that stuff and think you are putting all the money directly into your own pocket for general spending on goodies and making a fortune.
IMO these folk have been institutionalized by working for companies who offer a complete benefits package and just falsly compare your hourly rate to theirs and are totally ignorant of what being self-employed actually means.
To all those folk I say try being self-employed for a while before you start commenting.
I think we can determine that Bob makes great guitars and that he also has more expensive guitars for sale with-in the normal pricing of around $5,000. I've always considered Bob to be a master of options for additional costs.
He is a smart builder and has approached this ideal as a master of value with economy, and I applaud him for that. Some of the rest of us didn't see the light until after many years building a few guitars here and there. Today, things are beginning to be more mechanized and this is bringing better economy to many makers who are adjusting to it.
But one thing should be acknowledged; we all have our artistic ways to build, and this will speak for itself, as this will determine our position in the world.
RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to gerundino63)
quote:
Also add to that (in the UK anyway) you are entitled to a certain amount of sick-pay and paid holidays and probably get a company car and fuel allowance, mobile phone + account and laptop + internet that you can use in your own time also.
I forgot to add those in as well. In the US most people get at least two weeks paid vacation (holiday). In the US, someone making $100,000 a year would have to be at about $125,000 to $135,000 if self employed.
IMO these folk have been institutionalized by working for companies who offer a complete benefits package and just falsly compare your hourly rate to theirs and are totally ignorant of what being self-employed actually means.
People who are self-employed have a tendency to barter goods and services with other trusted business associates. It's doubtful they pay taxes on such transactions although they are required to do so. That might make up for the lost benefits, co-pays, etc., that employees receive.
RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
quote:
People who are self-employed have a tendency to barter goods and services with other trusted business associates. It's doubtful they pay taxes on such transactions although they are required to do so. That might make up for the lost benefits, co-pays, etc., that employees receive.
Absolute and utter ****, probably based on a few anecdotal stories you heard in the pub IMO.
I can tell you are not self-employed, but have always relied upon a company to look after you.
I have my workshop as a psrt of my house. Its 100% a part of my life. Very often I work 7 days a week for extended periods. I take my time to play enough to have a level which is good enough to fully understand what I build. To me its blood sweat and tears. But I like it. I live for it. Its my way of living and realising myself and I wouldnt change it for anything else.
ok, I am an architect ( I am 53 now)..... In my carrier I have heard these kind of words ONLY from VERY TALENTED old italian craftsmen. All of them are not rich people, but each of their WORKS enriches the life of the person that has the fortune to have it; this is the price of honesty and the power of the ART.
Actually, bartering is quite common in the US, I know as I am involved in it. We have many small family businesses and sole proprietor-ships that utilize bartering of goods and services and avoid taxes. Now, the IRS is pushing harder for barter companies to issue a tax document (known as a 1099 here in the US) in order to declare the barter as income- thus taxable.
However the statement by PGH-flamenco in regards to making up for lost benefits, etc. is a bit far fetched. Having years of experience in my own business and working for a large company and the gov't as well, it is much harder to work for yourself on so many levels.
You know absolutely nothing about what you write. So please stop insulting me or someone else trying to make a living in a difficult world. What you are, is the typical internet wise guy trying to be something he aint. Its sooooooo poor.
Yep, I think that was the photo in question.
What makes you getting rude? So, a photo looked as if there were gaps at a joint and I thought it to be indicating imperfection, for not having seen open joints with refined builds yet. As was just explained such could occure with well built guitars however, and I add it to the personal news.
What however makes you go overboard to further syncretism, insinuating I had to have no clue in general?
quote:
Cosmetics are important especially on poor sounding guitars but if the thing sounds and plays like a dream no player cares. Only the collectors and the perfectionist who dont play very well.
With phantasies like that you shouldn´t accuse anyone else for allegedly talking out of his back.
I do own instruments with inferiour cosmetics, yet appreciate them for their practical merrits. ( And there is another one on its way, whichs luthier isn´t the most meticulous in finish either, while fully concentrated on practical characteristics. )
Two of them even looking like trash, yet cherished for sound characteristics and playability. Cosmetics aren´t remotely of first priority to me, but with your permission, I sure appreaciate them whenever given.
What remains is that YOU seem to estimate three months for a single guitar, whereas other luthiers won´t ( while delivering top notch ). Seems as if such fact gets you really going from start, but its still no reason to get frantic on who points to it, like me. ( Don´t kill the messenger.)
My opinion is that if a buyer feels compelled to purchase a guitar for a given price than that is how it will be, but luthiers shouldn´t back up their pricing philosophy with the claim that a guitar would be taking three months to be made, unless what they produce would be accordingly different from common conditions / out of this world.
Do you think such an opinion to be blasphemy? I don´t; like it or not.
Disclaimer: The Eliasson guitar formerly referred to in this thread actually does not show gaps at its joint.
I guess that's just the problem of discussing stuff involving different cultures and governmental systems etc and assuming things are the same in each country.
I am bartering with my neighbour as he is a self-employed builder and I do web site stuff. Working well so far. I get trade prices and he doesn't get ripped off with technical talk. I think there is a bit more of it around in the current climate.