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RE: Economical Crisis in Spain
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to henrym3483)
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Henry, I respect your views on the current financial crisis, but as a retired U.S. diplomat who continues to consult on international affairs, I do not share your views on the Bilderberg Group, the Council on Foreign Relations, or the Trilateral Commission. I have been well-aware of their activities throughout the years and subscribe to the CFR's journal "Foreign Affairs." These organizations do indeed include in their membership foreign policy, financial, military, and political elites from around the world. I assure you that I have a pretty good handle on their activities and programs, and they are not "shady" organizations that "manipulate" governments. Many members have been in government, and governments occasionally call upon their expertise for advice, and at times follow it. Nevertheless, that they are viewed as shady, controlling, manipulating organizations is a case of extreme right-wing and left-wing paranoia converging. In the U.S., such paranoid people believe that the United Nations is trying to take over, claiming "black Helicopters" are conducting "surveillance missions" in preparation for the takeover! This is sheer nonsense.
Of course, someone with such a paranoid view of the world probably would reply that no doubt I am defending the above-cited organizations because I am part of the conspiracy! There is no end to the conspiratorial mind. At any rate, I appreciate the opportunity to offer another point of view than the one that appears to prevail on this forum.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 2 2010 17:01:33
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
Of course, someone with such a paranoid view of the world probably would reply that no doubt I am defending the above-cited organizations because I am part of the conspiracy! There is no end to the conspiratorial mind.
I'm sure Henry was joking, however I think what you say is true.
I'm sure that retired diplomats have a rose-tinted view of their role in days gone by and therefore give their blessings to all in that service now.
I used to work for the railways when I was young and the group consciousness in those days was always for safety on the permanent way.
I was in the Signals Division, yet if we we were going up the track and spotted a set of points going slightly out of alignment (which was not our responsibility), we would stop and someone would adjust them to spec and inform the Track Squad when we got back to base.
There was a pride in being part of British Rail. It was like being part of the Military.
Same if you worked for the GPO (now BT), or the Electricity Board. (Now a money-grabbing cartel of private companies IMO)
These days, the work is carried out by third party companies employing immigrant workers at the lowest possible pay, so do what they are told to do and nothing more, so the CEO's and henchmen can pay themselves large bonuses.
Everyone is in it for themselves and the money now.
So do I align myself with Railway workers now?
Do I f'ing hell!
Every day the evening TV News has smug, well-educated, Saville-Row suited CEO's and Politicians making excuses for blunders and errors and diplomatically kicking the ball into the long grass when confronted with difficult questions by saying things like "You can't expect me to make a statement at this point in time which would pre-empt the outcome of the inquiry which I have started and will be published in 12 months time."
THAT is "Diplomacy" IMO. 
We just need to look at the latest Wikileaks and all the scramblings and denials and finger pointing and scurrying to get as far away from any blame as possible to see what the world of "diplomacy" is about.
cheers,
Ron
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Date Dec. 2 2010 18:06:36
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henrym3483
Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to BarkellWH)
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re-edit: im putting back in the evidence
nah the TSA are just feeling up people and putting their hands down their pants, and those illegal internment camps don't exist, FEMA dont have concentration camps, they did a great job on hurricane katrina...
Posse comitatus has been eliminated, there no millitarisation of the police, the army are not being trained to take on the US citizens, gun owners and patriots.
evidence
http://epic.org/miac-militia-2009.pdf
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/the-militarization-of-american-police/
what about the madness in montana, the Hardin Montana incident?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/baldwin8.1.1.html
the glass steagall act was just an obstruction to the free market capitalism, options and derivatives and securitization of mortgages was a great thing, JP MORGAN and GOLDMAN (GOVERNMENT) SACHS are looking out for your best interest's.
BarkellWH, I respect the fact that your're a former US diplomat but from the research i've done in my Law Masters on Criminal Justice and Civil Liberties (Human Rights)
im sad to say alot is wrong with america today. and to close one's mind to this is wrong and frankly dangerous.
as jefferson said "those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither".
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Date Dec. 2 2010 21:38:55
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henrym3483
Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to sean65)
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quote:
Cheery thread chaps,
So the four pillars have crumpled.
My government is corrupt, the business's are failing, my priest is a pedophile.
So that just leaves my family, and they drive me nuts anyway.
Oh well, at least my guitar stays in tune
nae mind about that stuff, put a pint of the blackstuff in one hand and the banjo in the other, and the world seems a better place. :)
nicest experience i had lately was having a nice pint in local pub with a turf fire on, inside from the freezing cold and having the company of a good friend.
who needs an iphone, bmw and €250,000 house when we got that?
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Date Dec. 2 2010 22:28:36
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to henrym3483)
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As I recall, my earlier post simply stated my opinion (based on some experience) that the Bilderberg Group, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the Trilateral Commission were not engaged in some grand conspiracy to create, and benefit from, a world financial crisis. I don't recall saying anything about the United States being without fault. In fact, I didn't refer to the U.S. or its policies at all. What is your purpose in jumping from discussing the financial situation (and the above-cited organizations culpability, or lack thereof) to condemning the United States with your litany of accusations (many with little supporting evidence) and then suggesting that (I suppose you are referring to me) "...to close one's mind to this is wrong and frankly dangerous."
Where in my previous posts have I indicated the U.S. is without fault? What have I written that leads you to the implied conclusion that I must have a dangerously closed mind regarding U.S. policies? Can you not accept true diversity, i.e., diversity of viewpoints? I would expect a little more critical analysis of what has been written before reaching categorical conclusions, unsupported by evidence, from a graduate student in law.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 2 2010 22:51:56
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henrym3483
Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to BarkellWH)
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bill,
ok i can accept diversity of opinion, i'll deal with the economic question first.
lets start with glass steagall, this was an act used after the great depression to separate the finance investment bank (trading and investing) from your run of the mill deposit bank. this was to prevent these two types of banking systems from dragging the other down should one of these investment banks fail.
when i did my under grad in business and finance i raised the issue of securitization as that was the "big thing" at the time. these fantastic new financial instruments with high earning potential.
when i asked my lecturer who in effect owned the properties, i was told bluntly "thats outside the scope" of the lecture, well it seems alot of these homes that bank of america and other banks are trying to repossess under the mortgages that were securitized do not have title or a lien upon the properties in question and this poses the biggest threat for second wave of world finacial woes.
http://www.infowars.com/a-homeowners-rebellion-could-62-million-homes-be-foreclosure-proof/
check the links between goldman sachs and the current administration.
is it not odd that there should be such close ties between the politicians and banking interests? is'nt it odd that these guys tend to switch roles every couple of years? makes everything seem grey rather than black and white. i.e there is one posse in there at any time looking after their cronies benefits.
http://my.firedoglake.com/fflambeau/2010/04/27/a-list-of-goldman-sachs-people-in-the-obama-government-names-attached-to-the-giant-squids-tentacles/
ok lets get back to the cfr and tri-lateral commision.
look at david rockfeller comments below who is affialiated and connected with both organizations coming out with comments in public like.
"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order." David Rockefeller
regarding the links to the presidency and the power wielded by this position CFR candidates for president include George McGovern, Walter Mondale, Edmund Muskie, John Anderson, and Lloyd Bentsen. In 1976 we had Jimmy Carter We have also had CFR director (1977-79) George Bush, and last but not least, CFR member Bill Clinton. we also have mr cheney coming back to the cfr after his disgusting 8 years behind the bush "reign" of terror.
aint it weird to have an outside "think tank" do the "thinking" for elected representatives...may as well put the CFR AND TRILATERAL guys into a prominent position, and to hell with the division of powers malarky.
these people are unelected individuals making big calls on foreign policy and direction when it should be in the in remit of the executive and legislative branches under the separation of powers ideal? dosn't it seem odd or at least there is the possible existence of bias?
anyway thats my opinion on these matters.
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Date Dec. 3 2010 1:00:32
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to henrym3483)
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Henry,
I respect your views and hope our exchange of opinions has resulted in some interest in those who may have read them. More importantly, I hope that members of this forum who have opinions of their own will express them for the benefit of all of us. And even more important than that, I want to say that (and here I realize I am treading on dangerous ground) my all-time favorite flamenco guitarist is Paco Cepero. One of the finest videos I have ever come across is the one on Youtube, with Paco Cepero accompanying Camaron and Turronero on a buleria (Paco de Lucia is at the table but does not play). Paco Cepero has some excellent early solos as well. Paco Cepero, Even more than Paco de Lucia, is my all-time favorite guitarist.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 3 2010 2:06:14
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HeavyWood
Posts: 37
Joined: Apr. 19 2010
From: San Antonio, TX
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to mezzo)
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Bill,
Following Henry's excellent info above, tell me why elected
politicians from the U.S are attending Bilderberg, CFR, etc, policy meetings,
in direct violation of the Logan Act?
http://www.rense.com/general84/cele.htm
Bill, if you say:
"...the Bilderberg Group, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the Trilateral Commission were not engaged in some grand conspiracy to create, and benefit from, a world financial crisis...,"
Then read the stories below:
http://www.infowars.com/bankers-want-world-economic-government-to-solve-financial-crisis-they-created/
http://www.infowars.com/globalists-exploit-financial-meltdown-in-move-towards-one-world-currency/
If the UN is not trying to set world policy, and benefit from regulating
markets and respective economies, then what is Agenda 21 for?
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/10/un_agenda_21_coming_to_a_neigh.html
Just food for thought...Enjoy the conspiracy... :(
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Date Dec. 3 2010 5:20:26
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco
quote:
Everyone is in it for themselves and the money now.
This is the source of most of the economic and social problems these days. Practically everyone from every social class is out for themselves no matter what the consequences are to anyone else or the system.
That is true, and unfortunately indifferent lump in the same time.
Because, the dependent and the privileged being short-sighted for fundamentally different reason.
The first mentioned, for cultural decline and plight, primarily and secondly resultig of policies of the second, who again act reckless unsolicitedly.
More even as they could abdicate their endless appropriation strategies easily, as contemporary privilegeds gathering and occupying earthly goods in abundant dimensions never seen before in history. ( With thousands of second- and third-row rich meanwhile of purchasing power as much like of world´s handful top rich of just thirty years ago.)
Notwithstandingly, pathological greed ( <- under scientifical, not emotional terms ) showing unstoppable, yet before whatsoever human or global consequence like devastation, famine, pandemies or contamination.
What lower social class is concerned, I am seeing already the degeneration of mentality that is yet to come for the "First World". ( Very soon.)
I am currently wittnessing cultural desaster, with rigid unscrupulousness and total absence of actual self-respect, in consequence lying, betraying, stealing and robbing as standard among a population of a developing country, with self-respect and honorableness having remained as only rare exception.
A long-term result of official premise of hypocricy and bigotry, only little ahead of the so called "democratic world", and thus simultaneously little ahead of mental effects there in the same time.
Eventhough affected personally, with 80% of an original wealth embezzled from me initially, and from the remains again stolen as much that currently only 3,8% being leftover ( with seemingly half of that before long turning out foiled too by slick co-owner of a shared company, besides ), causal survey on the development of mentality stay sight for me.
It is significant to not muddle cause and symptom.
If you e.g. see a neurotic dog, you must know that his mental state will be fault of human interference.
In the same way "evil nature" of men is a sneaky myth, rationally totally absurd.
It is all culture. With humans 100%.
And if privileged, yet unsophisticated minorities shape culture, no wonder if unflusteredly done so to their own material benefit and intentions, no matter what concerns of fellow human and creatures be.
Seeing what wise reigns there existed already thousands of years ago, one despite all technology and educational ressource must realize how lowly present civilisation is.
What a needlessly fatal pity.
Ruphus
PS:
I am elated by the depth of thinking that I see here.
In forums for classical guitar things seem basically different. So much that my impression is that conservatives might chose classical music for dressing up intellectually.
It seems conditions with flamenco guitarists to be basically different from average classical players.
Very interesting for me to notice.
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Date Dec. 3 2010 11:09:25
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to KMMI77)
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I really like your questions, and with your permission want to try replying.
quote:
ORIGINAL: KMMI77
Will real change or solutions require letting go of the familiarity of this reality?
The term "will / shall" seems to indicate as if you believed in mother earth as invincible, as so many do. It isn´t; and in fact being at the brink to desert. ( The planets symptoms buffering must be taken into account.)
Yes, solution would inherently inquire letting go the familiarity of established construct ( which is not being equal to reality at all).
quote:
ORIGINAL: KMMI77
Without first having a complete understanding of the meaning of life and reason for it, we are only able to fumble around with our discoveries, ideas and opinions. Hence constant disunity and corruption so far. ...
It's frustrating and also interesting that we have not been given a definitive understanding and reason for the experience of life itself.
One of the traditionally blown-up / mystified questions is being this.
Life, unspecified, has no meaning other than to keep itself in existence after bring off. It has no specific direction or agenda except of staying.
The background of coming into existence ( under yet much more unfriendly conditions than formerly expected ) is electricity. Electrons corresponding to their values. And once a vital emulsion like amino acid has come together life does so simultaneously.
Specialisation then takes place, ordinarily determined by environmental conditions. That is all there is. No hocus-pocus needed, neither in place.
Yet, when self-aware intellect comes into existence, an overriding sense comes to life in the same time, which is reason.
Consequently, human life has a meaning beyond surviving.
Humans are born to comprehend, and aquire / approach reason.
In opposite to the common glas bowl fuzz in this regard, not really a too hard circumstance to rationally discover.
quote:
ORIGINAL: KMMI77
We are left to create our own opinions and ideas that we can only speculate as being reasons. We have all these physical, mental and emotional abilities including the ability to create life but no definitive understandable unifying reason. Big Problem!
Not really.
Growing intellectual capability ( if not intentionally hindered, naturally ) on principle develops progressively towards reason.
Reason kept in sight, problems will be merely of pragmatical nature. IOW, in the end: ethical concerns.
quote:
ORIGINAL: KMMI77
Our boundaries seem to be imposed by ourselves, our own lack of knowledge, and the fear that the unknown creates.
In a de-coupled, unnatural culture and mentality.
However, not inherently so.
quote:
ORIGINAL: KMMI77
This has the significant impact on all of us including people involved in government.
The latter much less.
Under common circumstances you won´t get your foot into a parliament, unless formerly proven to be complient and corrupted.
People involved in government usually are not there to ponder on wordly / conclusive and community concerns, but to pursue their private and material career.
quote:
ORIGINAL: KMMI77
Very strange to think about considering the perceived size of the universe.
More so even, if there be countless universes on top of that.
But matters of humanity and environment, of justice and constructivity although challenging are not being nearly as complex.
Reason provided.
quote:
ORIGINAL: KMMI77
Are we all the same thing? I can only speculate.
From start, due to common drives: Yes.
Yet, after denaturalisation basic differences occure.
quote:
ORIGINAL: KMMI77
What needs to change to bring about the perception of constant stability, happiness and peace?
Reason, again.
quote:
ORIGINAL: KMMI77
All our decisions, discoveries and thoughts combined have brought us here.
Not as a whole. Much of discoveries and thoughts have been suppressed.
Status quo actually is being based ona selective fraction.
quote:
ORIGINAL: KMMI77
A new world order,banks and bickering won't fix anything
Without "bickering" that happened in history we might be running around with electronic collars today, remote steered to slave work.
That critisizm wasn´t to be worth anything is one of the mantras released to keep sheeps in line.
In fact, each and every progress made so far, came about through questioning and critisizing ( "bickering" about, if you will ) given conditions.
Ruphus
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Date Dec. 3 2010 12:38:22
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to HeavyWood)
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Hello, Heavywood,
Elected U.S. politicians who attend Bilderberg, CFR, and Trilateral Commission meetings are not doing so in direct violation of the Logan Act. The Logan Act, which has been in effect in the U.S. since 1799, makes it a felony for any citizen, elected official or private citizen, to engage in unauthorized negotiations with a foreign government. The key terms here are "unauthorized" and "foreign government." Obviously, the above cited organizations are not foreign governments.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 3 2010 14:07:33
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to Chilli Fingers)
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Hello, Cilli Fingers,
I suggest you first read (or if you have read it, understand ) what I have written before attempting misplaced satire. I never said everything is just fine, nor did I say that banks and financial institutions did not profit from, or were responsible for, the financial mess in which we find ourselves. They clearly have profited and bear a large part of the responsibility. What I did say was that there was no grand conspiracy among the Bilderberg Group, the CFR, and the Trilateral Commision to create this crisis. And one more thing I emphasized in an earlier post on this subject, in my opinion we, the public, in each of our respective countries, are just as responsible as the financial and political institutions for this mess. For decades we have demanded ever greater social services, welfare, and cradle-to-grave security. Now we have to pay the piper for the tremendous deficits and debt that have resulted from our desire for a security cocoon. Our own greed can be seen in the large number of people (in the U.S., at least) who assumed home mortgages that they could not sustain. They were not all duped by lenders; many took the risk because they thought the market would continue to go up. They, in their individual way, are just as greedy as the lenders.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 3 2010 14:20:08
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mezzo
Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
They were not all duped by lenders; many took the risk because they thought the market would continue to go up. They, in their individual way, are just as greedy as the lenders.
You're certainly right on this point.
But the system is perverse. For example : revolving credits. A really bad thing, yet it is super easy to get. Why?
What 's the logic behind that? Consumerism. Or the overpractice of this behaviour.
This is the Dogma of our society. People are just FORCED to buy (ok it's not a physical constraint but a psychological one).
Advertising, tv programs, everything is thinking, study to push for consumption. why? Coz the system NEEDS consumers. If people do not consume enought then it's a drama.
Once i saw a documentary on TV, there was an American guy who showed his Credit cards. Jeezz there were at least 10 differents. WTF?
Just have a look here in this foro. Most folks have several guitars.Ok you can't blame them for this. They have the cash and go for it. They buy for PLEASURE not because they need a new one.
The same for tv. More family have 1 tv per room. 1 car per adult or child...buy, buy, buy do not worry if you have prob with cash coz the System provide us Revolving credit...wonderful!
If you don't buy the last iphone, if you don't wear the last gansta shoes, if you don't buy a brand bag for you children to go to school then you're just a looser...
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
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Date Dec. 3 2010 15:32:36
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