Ye olde picado debate

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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

Ye olde picado debate

I checked in on the new, old Flamenco-teacher website, which I do about once a month, and noticed another debate on picado. It seems that yet another person has been influenced by Graf-Martinez to change his style of picado.

I thought it was interesting that Ricardo said that Nunez pointed out that there are two schools of picado, the bent fingers and the straight. Paco, obviously, is one of the former (this is the Graf-Martinez), and Sabicas is of the latter.

I have played both ways and am still very much in the process of experimenting. I think there are benefits and disadvantages of both styles, but here are two things I think I think:

One, that your particular physiology must dictate how you play picado or anything else.
Two, that the fingertips--how they attack the strings, what you are doing with them and how you perceive them, is much more important than the attitude of your hand.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2005 5:26:31

JAM

Posts: 7
Joined: Dec. 11 2004
From: Den Haag, Netherlands

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Would I be a freak if I told anyone that I play picado with I and A instead of I and M ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2005 2:50:30

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to JAM)

You would be unusual. Does it work well for you? I have wondered from time to time how that pattern would work.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2005 5:01:02

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to JAM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAM
Would I be a freak if I told anyone that I play picado with I and A instead of I and M ?

Nope. You'll find a couple more freaks round here that use other solutions too.

Jon

PS I read that Sabicas used IA, but this could be just Internet speculation. Its always notoriously hard to pin down things like this unless someone can refer to film footage, reliable first hand eye witness or whatever.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2005 7:47:06

Jamey

Posts: 187
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Actually in the Rey del Flamenco transcription book by Faucher, I-A picado is written as the method used in several instances (in Zapateado en Re for example). Both Juan Serrano and Paco Peña mix the two in their playing (Serrano more noteably). Often practice regimes for picado include switching between I-M and I-A.

Bent vs. straight.....I dunno, whatever works for you.
I use a bent "claw-like" shape to my hand. I've heard about the Graf-Martinez approach many times but I've never quite understood the descriptions so I don't really understand how it's supposed to work. If I understand correctly, the movement is only at the middle knuckle?
Can somebody enlighten me here?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2005 18:58:27

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Jamey)

quote:

If I understand correctly, the movement is only at the middle knuckle?

No. Maybe that is what he says, but the power and main movement is from the knuckle that attaches the finger to the hand. This is regardless if you have bent or straight fingers. For bent free stroke, your fingers look, from the side, like backwards "J" shapes and swing from the top. They don't have to swing far if you are efficient, so from the front view it LOOKS like only the middle joint moves. When playing rest strokes the fingers are more "L" shaped and move the same way. Check out some video close ups of the masters on Graf Matinez site.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2005 21:49:20

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Jamey)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jamey
Actually in the Rey del Flamenco transcription book by Faucher, I-A picado is written as the method used in several instances (in Zapateado en Re for example).

Thanks Jamey, always god to have sources. I suppose there would still be the question of whether Alain is right, but he has a reputation for being meticulous about these things and I can't see why he would notate it as I-A unless he had a good reason for doing so.

Interesting to hear about Paco Pena - whats your source for him? I don't recall it mentioned in Toques Flamencos.

Thanks.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2005 8:28:15

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

If I understand correctly, the movement is only at the middle knuckle?

No. Maybe that is what he says, but the power and main movement is from the knuckle that attaches the finger to the hand. This is regardless if you have bent or straight fingers. For bent free stroke, your fingers look, from the side, like backwards "J" shapes and swing from the top. They don't have to swing far if you are efficient, so from the front view it LOOKS like only the middle joint moves. When playing rest strokes the fingers are more "L" shaped and move the same way. Check out some video close ups of the masters on Graf Matinez site.

Ricardo

Interestingly, Martinez has those videos up to demonstrate exactly the opposite - ie that the movement in this style of picado is generated predominantly from the middle joint.
With fingers held in that postion, I can't see how it would work otherwise.

I can see how the large knuckle would have to be involved in the return part of the stroke (ie after the string has been plucked), otherwise the fingertip would travel through the same path and simply crash into the string. In other words, you have to have extension at the large knuckle for the finger to clear the string it just played on its return. Watched at speed from the side, things are going so fast it would be hard to see what joint is doing is what when, and though there may be flexion/extension at the large kunckle, I think this is what you are seeing (the return).

But if the large knuckle were the main point of flexion during the actual stroke (the plucking part), it seems to me that the fingertip would simply travel towards the guitar top rather than towards the next string. A good analogy would be this - it would be like tapping your fingers on a table top. In order for the finger to move through the string and come to rest on the next string, you would need a movement like this - scratching your fingers on a table top.

To my mind, the middle joint IS the main driver in this particular style of picado, with the finger joints held like that I can't see it working any other way.

BTW, although a lot of people seem to attribute this technique observation to Graf Martinez, Juan Martin said the same thing in his method back in 1977.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2005 8:48:05

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Jon Boyes)

I've been practising Graf-Martinez picardo for many months and agree with Jon's observations. You will see the large knuckles moving but this is only to allow the fingers to clear the strings - the actual power of the stroke (if done correctly) comes from the middle knuckles. When you watch a player it may be difficult to work out where the power is coming from (middle or large knuckle) but once you try the technique then it quickly becomes clear that the power must come from the middle knuckle. One further point - a straight finger player switching to this technique will find it very difficult at first and it will require a fair bit of perseverance (several hundred hours of practice perhaps) to produce results.

hamia

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2005 17:13:17

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I was wondering what is the point of this particular way of playing picado. Is it faster, louder, have a better tone?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2005 17:42:20

Jamey

Posts: 187
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I don't know. I keep my fingers bent almost only at the middle knuckle with the movement coming from the base knuckle. I concentrate on pushing into the soundboard more than trying to come to rest on the adjacent string (it still works though since I still do a rest stroke). I tried moving from only my middle knuckle. I just can't do it. It feels all clunky and awkward. I think I simply don't understand Graf-Martinez technique. Gerhard lurks on this forum from time to time so I wonder if he could chime in and elaborate a little?

Jon, re: Peña using I-A, I can't remember if it was in a book or not (I don't think it's Toques) but I did see some video footage of his Mis Flamenca ensemble and he was playing I-A from time to time (not nearly to the extent that you see with Juan Serrano who seems to mix it in quite regularly). Every time I've practiced it that way, it seemed clumsy for me. Sabícas was just super human. Check how fast he could play I-A.......amazing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2005 21:22:49

JAM

Posts: 7
Joined: Dec. 11 2004
From: Den Haag, Netherlands

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Allow me to quote from Toques Flamencos.

'When playing runs, two finger - usually the index and middle fingers - are used alternately.'

Voilà.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2005 22:51:27

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Ermm.. the 'index and middle' fingers are the i and m fingers..
Which means i m i m i m i m etc.

But anyway, how many of you actually practise iaia picados? And what exactly is the use of practising other permutations instead of just im alone? I've heard that Segovia (I think) practises scales using ami ami ami or ima ima ima. I wonder if flamenco ever uses that too.

Skai

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2005 2:05:27

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Practicing scales with other fingers will never hurt your technique, trust me. The more balanced your hand, the better. I practice a bit with am. I have done enough work with ai to feel that someone could base their scales technique around it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2005 2:19:25

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Jon Boyes)

quote:

A good analogy would be this - it would be like tapping your fingers on a table top. In order for the finger to move through the string and come to rest on the next string, you would need a movement like this - scratching your fingers on a table top.

To my mind, the middle joint IS the main driver in this particular style of picado, with the finger joints held like that I can't see it working any other way.

I used to think this too (mid joint power ala Aaron Shear), and I admit spent some time developing this which was not really wasted time. But that is not where the power is coming from w/ the players in those vids. If you are scratching the table w/ bent fingers and the nails are always in contact w/ the table, that is NOT the feeling. Your nails should be lifting off the table slightly, tapping away. I know from the front or top angle of your hand, it LOOKS like that, but there is a difference from the side angle.

There is a big difference in power, feeling, and speed control between driving from the big joint vs the middle joint, regardless if your fingers are bent or straight. Of course ALL the joints are moving a little bit when playing, it is natural. I am not saying the fingers are stiff hooks that swing from the top joint only, but the shape should hold somewhat. Crossing from bass to treble w/ m->i, the index must extend a bit. But the power is not coming from the middle joint to push into the string, just because it moves. Watch the vids from the side angle of PdL in Rito y Geographia, the Solea especially. Always big knuckle power.

Try this, hold the fingers straight and play on the table again (tapping), alternating fast i-m. It is ok if your index does not touch. Big knuckle movement right? Keep alternating and slowly bend your fingers until they are at right angles (both tips touching table now) and your finger bones between the big and middle joint are parallel to the table. You should not be scratching the table, you should still be tapping. The power should not have shifted, it's still in the big joint. I know it seems weird, but that is the feeling. Some guys play by only bending the middle joint enough to make it the same lenghth as the index. Check some other guys in Rito like Cepero, and Enrique de Melchor.

Middle joint power IS a legit technique, just not what those guys in the vids are doing w/ their picados.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2005 3:26:01

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
I used to think this too (mid joint power ala Aaron Shear),

Thats good, my memory is not as faulty as I thought

I was about to search out a lengthy post from you on FT from a few years back where you argued the same principle as me. What changed your mind?

I must get these Rito videos, apart from seeing these up close picado shots they look like a fantastic collection.

The trouble is do I blow my forthcoming birthday money on the set of Rito vids, or make the trip to Rafael for a couple of lessons...

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2005 8:20:52

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Those are some great vids. One thing I noticed about Paco's picado is that his form is not "perfect". What I mean by this, is that as he descends toward the e string (floor), his hand opens up slightly and he "reaches" with the fingers. He does not keep the shape of his hand completely constant.

Man, we are sad. Why do we care so much about one silly technique?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2005 14:04:26

Jamey

Posts: 187
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I think because we've all sat there and realized that we are physically able to move our fingers fast enough, but that in practice on the strings, we simply can't. I know it drives me nuts. I KNOW that I'm able to move my fingers very fast. But put strings there in the way and forget it! I can't do it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2005 17:51:59

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

Those are some great vids. One thing I noticed about Paco's picado is that his form is not "perfect". What I mean by this, is that as he descends toward the e string (floor), his hand opens up slightly and he "reaches" with the fingers. He does not keep the shape of his hand completely constant.

Man, we are sad. Why do we care so much about one silly technique?

Mike,
Personally I think you can over-analyze something to the point that it becomes a hindrance to progress.
The folk I've seen playing very fast picado (either live or on video/tv) seem to have different ways of executing it.
Copying someone elses hand position exactly, would not be the way to go IMO.
Like, decades ago, Paco felt a comfortable hand position for playing picado.
He just worked at it, practising and getting it faster and faster.
Manolo Sanlucar plays with an entirely different hand position, as does what I could make out of Gerardo Nuñez at the Jerez Festival televised on Ondajerez.

Also I would agree with Ricardo that all the joints move to an extent, but the main power is always coming from the main knuckle joint.
In fact Paco Peña once pointed this out to me that this was the main difference between Classical and Flamenco picado.

Anyway, as you know, I find fast picado technique stuff boring, so who cares...
Yawn

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2005 21:16:22

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Personally I think you can over-analyze something to the point that it becomes a hindrance to progress.

Yes, 'paralysis by analysis' as the saying goes. There's a lot of truth in that. Although I foind it intriguing, I wouldn't want to obsess over this stuff. You should see some of the classical forums, they really go to town on this stuff.

Jonm

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2005 8:19:50