Santos Hernandis

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Santos Hernandis

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Siroco03

Posts: 28
Joined: Jan. 6 2010

Santos Hernandis

Hello, Can anybody tell me how to recognize a true Santos Hernandis guitar from a fake one? , how would you tell that what they are selling is not a cheap imitation? do you trust the ones from Ebay?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2010 6:27:04

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Siroco03)

Hy erog

First of all, what ist Santos Hernandis? I assume you mean Santos Hernandez.

Do you have a picture of the guitar in question?

Purchasing a guitar of collector's value on ebay is a risk. Usually owners of such guitars do not sell their insruments via ebay and even then, there is a risk that it is either a fake or the guitar suffers a serious damage.

If you can post some pics, we'll be better able to help.

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2010 13:21:44

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Siroco03)

Man that one on ebay now.. the only thing blatantly telling me no is the rosette. It's clearly an ancient guitar and a pretty good fake. But you have to ask yourself, who would sell a Santos on Ebay?? I would go straight to collectors if I thought I had the real deal

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2010 13:52:20

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Siroco03)

I've never seen a Stradivarius violin for sale on Ebay – has anyone? While in terms of sheer monetary value, a Strad is worth far, far more than a Santos, still, in terms of importance and rarity, a Santos is relatively as valued within the world of flamenco guitars as a Strad is in the world of violins.

It's unlikely that anyone who owned a genuine 1922 Santos is going to be selling it on Ebay. Below is a photo of what is purported to be a 1923 Santos. Assuming that it's authentic, the headstock is similar, but on very close examination it's not quite exactly the same. This could be attributed to normal variation, or it could be attributed to an attempt to duplicate the headstock on a fake.

I think the photos on Ebay are so good, including the label, that an expert could probably give a definitive opinion without even examining the guitar in person.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SANTOS-HERNANDEZ-1922-FLAMENCO-ACOUSTIC-GUITAR-MADRID-/280583993759?pt=Guitar&hash=item41541bf99f

http://zavaletas-guitarras.com/static/product/index.cfm?action=view&ProductCode=1923SantosHerna

This ad preposterously shows two photos of the headstock, one with pegs and one with rollers, and both with entirely different headstock designs, the one with rollers looking more like a Barbero.

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2010 15:02:30

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deteresa1

Man that one on ebay now.. the only thing blatantly telling me no is the rosette. It's clearly an ancient guitar and a pretty good fake.

May not be "ancient", I've seen fairly new guitars that were more beat up and looked older. You're right about the rosette. The other tipoff that it's not a Santos is the angled saddle, I think that's a fairly recent innovation in guitar making.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2010 22:09:32

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Siroco03)

Also, were clear golpeadores used that far back, or are they a more recent development. Many older guitars used white golpeadores. And the Ebay guitar also has only one golpeador below the strings and none above. Most of the old guitars I have seen had two golpeadores, though I imagine there were exceptions.

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2010 0:20:49

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Siroco03)

The listing says it has been repaired and refinished and that would explain some of the discrepancies such as the glear golpeadores.
But the refinishing has quite likely thinned the top and possibly ruined it as far as sound and value

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2010 0:31:00

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Siroco03)

Only the tiles in the rosette don't check out, everything else looks pretty good. Can't tell unless you see it in person. It's possible but the rosette tiles look fishy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2010 2:07:27

odessit2

Posts: 11
Joined: Nov. 9 2010

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2010 3:25:02

odessit2

Posts: 11
Joined: Nov. 9 2010

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2010 3:26:39

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Siroco03)

How much for the dog?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2010 6:25:44

odessit2

Posts: 11
Joined: Nov. 9 2010

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 7 2011 3:28:22

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2010 6:51:36

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Siroco03)

Hy

The headstock of this guitar matches with the real Santos headstock of this time.
What i find to be rare is, that the neck is made of mahogany instread of cedar, especially on a flamenco guitar. However it is not impossible that Santos used mahogany for the neck. Barbero used mahogany on his 1951 model too.

I have never seen a Santos Rosette with a rose pattern so far.

The soundboard seems to be of fine quality spruce.
The interior of the soundbox looks like a guitar of this age.

The label looks original. Santos used to add the two last numbers of the year in handwriting to the pre printed Label.

The guitar suffered a lot during it's lifetime. There are several cracks and repairs visible on that guitar. We don't know about repairs done on the soundboard inside the soundbox. Those, if existing may have a dramatic impact on the sound of the guitar if not executed professionally.

So overall i did not find an indication that speaks clearly for a fake. However we don't know how the guitar plays and sounds and we cannot be sure that all parts of this guitar are original. Even the sides of the guitar may have been replaced entirely. When i look at the picture that shows the end of the guitar i find the end strip hasn't been inserted as accurate as we would expect it from Santos Hernandez.

So be careful before you bid on a 15000 Euro guitar without to have 100% proof for is origin.

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2010 19:27:24

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to odessit2)

quote:

ORIGINAL: odessit2

Hi, my name is Igor Kopman. You are talking about my Guitar. All pictures are actual. Call me 818-983-9040 if you have any questions, and more information, and need more pictures. I really need your opinion.
Thank you.

My guess is that it is a top replacement, and the rosette was perhaps done by Warren White sometime in the 60's, as Warren was a good builder and got this basic design from Graydon Buss in San Antonio Texas, who built very small tiles in his rosettes and designed a rose style for Mr. White.

But the top replacement pretty much renders the guitar valueless compared to an original Santos.

This doesn't mean that the guitar is not worth something but there is no real value for a collector, in its present condition.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2010 12:50:23

mwburnett

Posts: 3
Joined: Nov. 13 2010

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Siroco03)

I have inspected this guitar personally, have met its owner Igor, who impressed me a good guy, and incidentally I am the owner of the signed '33 Santos blanca currently listed with Trilogy. I am of the belief that this guitar may be a re-worked guitar of another maker, as (in addition to others' observations already noted) the shape of the heel (pretty much straight down from the neck in side view rather than re-curved; also made of a coarse pine sandwich) and that of the foot (not squared off and beveled, nor stamped) are unlike any Santos I have ever seen in person or archived on-line. Unfortunately I was not prepared to take any measurements at the time I viewed the guitar, so cannot comment there, but will also observe that outside of the sound hole area, where the label and purported maker's stamp are conveniently dirty, the interior of the guitar is otherwise pristine with no apparent discoloration or oxidized surfaces, leading me to believe it was of rather more recent origin. I suggest that the label may have been reproduced from Dan Zeff's '22 blanca (https://www.danzeffguitars.com/showitem.cfm?id=22&menu=flamenco&type=guitars) Draw your own conclusions. I hope this is helpful.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2010 4:22:07

mwburnett

Posts: 3
Joined: Nov. 13 2010

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I had a "face case" Ferrer guitar that several years ago had a top replacement done by GVR here in LA, and he salvaged the old rosette to keep things as "original looking" as possible. (BTW the sound was an enormous improvement over the heavily-sanded original.) I pose this question parenthetically: If this were a real Santos, why would a builder not make every effort to do the same? (I am assuming the original face was not crushed, as there is no evidence of any damage to the bouts on Igor's guitar as one might otherwise expect.
MWB

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2010 4:38:28

mwburnett

Posts: 3
Joined: Nov. 13 2010

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Siroco03)

Please delete from consideration my comment about a 'coarsely stacked pine heel' - I was confusing this with another guitar (a fake Barbero!Not even a convincing label) I saw several weeks ago, roughly around the same time. Other comments stand. Also note that this guitar does not have the rosewood heel cap of Dan Zeff's '22 (also unsigned) Santos.
MWB

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2010 6:18:21

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 10 2009

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2011 17:42:56

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Siroco03)

Wow that's pretty F ing expensive just to own what might actually be half of a real Santos neck and possibly even the back off one of his guitars. I wonder if he will clean the vomit out of the inside before shipping it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2011 19:21:54

odessit2

Posts: 11
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 5:40:43

M.S.A.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 6:16:26

odessit2

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 6:41:30

M.S.A.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 6:53:07

M.S.A.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 7:00:43

odessit2

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 7:41:47

yohan

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 8:01:23

M.S.A.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 8:18:45

odessit2

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2011 6:44:13

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to odessit2)

Guys,
Sorry for butting in but the exchanges seemed to be getting heated and I thought perhaps you would like some information on this particular instrument.

This was a "house" brand made specifically for Sherry-Brener in Chicago back in the 60's and 70's. I was told by a credible source that these guitars were made in Japan and re-labeled with a Spanish sounding name and made to look like they were made in Spain. I'll let you draw you're own conclusions as to whether or not this is a good practice :) I was also told that they were good instruments well built and very playable much like some of the great Japanese luthier's like Yairi, however not on the order of magnitude like a Ramirez or Esteso. I wouldn't pay 15k for this instrument but probably 300-1000 usd depending on the condition. I think someone would get a nice old school flamenco in that price range...

It is not a "fake" Santos Hernandez however it is probably not worth 15k either but buyer beware as always...
Sig--

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2011 22:04:15