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Posts: 15
Joined: Oct. 7 2008
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
the true tradition of the flamenco i...
"The true flamenco, the true tradition of the flamenco is beautiful, beautiful. But, unfortunately, the flamenco is suffering now, exactly like the other important arts..."
"It's very strange to find really, a good flamenco player, or singing, or dancing. Then all that kind of modern flamenco I dislike profoundly."
- Andrés Segovia
The above video clip shows Segovia stating these things - please see starting at about 1 minute & 36 seconds in...
What artist or artists is Segovia referring to (if any) when he says: ""The true flamenco, the true tradition of the flamenco is beautiful, beautiful."?
What artist or artists is Segovia referring to (if any) when he says: "It's very strange to find really, a good flamenco player, or singing, or dancing. Then all that kind of modern flamenco I dislike profoundly."?
(Keep in mind, this film was made in the summer of 1967, when Segovia was about 74 years old.)
Thoughts, impressions, insights, feedback?
I'm really curious what the foro people make of this. Thanks for any info you can offer.
Posts: 15
Joined: Oct. 7 2008
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
RE: the true tradition of the flamen... (in reply to Jgtr07)
Thanks for the reply, Jason. Yes, of course I know that.
However, he was arguably the most influential guitarist of the 20th century of any style, therefore, his opinion carried a lot of weight. In addition, he is often maligned as helping to create a schism between the classical and flamenco traditions. Here, he seems to be saying he does admire el arte puro y la tradición.
Was he indirectly expressing admiration for Diego del Gastor, Ramon Montoya, or who?
Posts: 3433
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: the true tradition of the flamen... (in reply to Jgtr07)
There is a story, undocumented, that Segovia's first teacher was a flamenco guitarist.
I wonder what he thought of Melchor de Marchena and the "neoclasicismo" of Antonio Mairena--both popular at the time of this interview.
One assumes he would have approved of La Niña de los Peines and Javier Molina, before she began to participate in "Opera Flamenca" and other dramas. Ramon Montoya was probably too modern for him.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: the true tradition of the flamen... (in reply to Jgtr07)
In my career as a classical and flamenco guitar critic, I reviewed Segovia twice, and met him numerous times, several of those in private, invited circumstances.
He lived to around ninety-four, and in all that time it is rumored that someone – once – saw him smile. But this cannot be verified. I certainly never did.
I also attended some of his master classes – as a spectator, not participant. His overbearing, imperious manner intimidated, if not terrified, the players. He would sit there, stone-faced, without a single nice word to say, and as a guitarist I could only feel for them, knowing what they had gone through to get to that point, the work, sweat, blood, and tears.
All that notwithstanding, it cannot be denied that he was the single most influential individual in the history of classical guitar, and more than anyone brought it to its position today in the world of music.
RE: the true tradition of the flamen... (in reply to Jgtr07)
IT should be known that at the time solo flamenco was becoming wildly popular. It was economically smart to disparage the new solo flamenco for segovia. After all, people were buying tickets to see montoya more and more. thats dangerous for a classical player.
Which is easier for you to relate to?
I know i'd disparage any competition i had if we were fighting for the same buck.
Posts: 15
Joined: Oct. 7 2008
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
RE: the true tradition of the flamen... (in reply to Guest)
Thank you guys, for all your opinions. I'll have to disagree strongly with romerito.
I love flamenco music and i love flamenco guitar, and I love classical guitar, and I also love the art of Segovia (for what it was - individual artist-oriented late romantic, personally expressive classical guitar).
I believe any perceived schism that he may have created between classical and flamenco guitar was (in his mind) purely to elevate the guitar in the classical world to the same level of respect as the violin and piano - for the conservatories, classical music critics, record companies, great composers, conductors, and the concert-going public. Some of the composers who wrote for him included: Turina (born in Sevilla), Torroba, Manuel Ponce, Villa-Lobos, Rodrigo, Castelnuovo-Tedesco (Sephardic), and many others.
Sure he was somewhat self-serving during his career, but look at what he achieved! He extended the guitar repertoire, presented it to as wide a public as possible, and helped to open the floodgates for the guitar being legitimate in conservatories, universities, and concert series around the world.
Now, flamenco guitar is being taught at many universities and conservatories around the world, too... (Paco Peña teaches at the Music Conservatory and Dance Academy of Rotterdam, Adam Del Monte teaches at the University of Southern California, and many others).
By the way, I attended the Segovia masterclasses in 1986 at USC (not UCLA, romerito). I think it was a great series of events, and Michael Chapdelaine learned a valuable lesson: as a student in a masterclass you must leave your huge ego at the door and be open to learning the Maestro's way (in his class). That was a very valuable thing Chapdelaine learned then, and even he admits it.
Everyone knew, going into a Segovia class, that you were supposed to use his editions, his fingerings, and his interpretations (more or less). I myself sent in an audition tape for those classes, and it was very clear up front in the application that you must use Segovia's editions and fingerings. That is standard operating procedure. Why on earth would anyone have the audacity to insult him, and change his fingerings (and therefore subtle issues of interpretation)? You would change the fingerings only for pure self-serving ego (or ignorance). At least wait untill the class is over, and play the music in your own unique, artistic way then, but don't be a fool going in. The bonus, for that trial-by-fire for any student, was that your career would be immeasurably boosted for listing Segovia on your resume for the rest of your life...not a bad trade-off for most people.
Anyways, I think Segovia was an expert on Andalusian culture, since he was born in Linares, Jaén, and eventually settled on the Costa del Sol (at the time of this video). He loved the Andalusian poetry (Juan Ramón Jiménez, born in Moguer, near Huelva - poetry Platero y Yo) and was apparently a close friend of Federico García Lorca (born in Fuente Vaqueros, Granada). So, in hindsight, historically, I think it is very interesting to hear his positive opinion on "the true tradition of the flamenco".
Sure, he was always a late Romantic figure (even in the Modern era), and behind the times with his interpretation of early music, and yes, he carried certain biases. Yes, many players have now far surpassed his technical abilities, and it would be anachronistic to mimic his exaggerated interpretations of certain pieces on the guitar, now. However, for Romantic Spanish classical guitar music, his recordings still stand up today as quite strong. He always championed the Spanish composers, though, and he promoted Spanish culture throughout the world. That counts for a lot.
Regardless of your personal opinion of the man, he was arguably the most influential guitarist of the 20th century of any style, so it is interesting to me to hear his opinion on "the true tradition of the flamenco". That's why I asked the questions I did, in my first post.
I was just wondering what specific flamenco artists he may have been referring to indirectly, in the video? (Richard, you did give some artists' names to look into, so thank you for that).
RE: the true tradition of the flamen... (in reply to Jgtr07)
quote:
I was just wondering what specific flamenco artists he may have been referring to indirectly, in the video?
Manolo de Huelva. He played at the Concurso (1922 in Granada) and I once saw a quote (unconfirmed) in which Segovia praised his thumb (something like "They should make a golden statue of Manolo de Huelva's thumb"). Despite Segovia's birthplace and residence, I wouldn't place too much importance on his appreciation of flamenco. I don't know much about him, but I get the impression that if he liked anything about flamenco, it was for all the wrong reasons (idealizing what had ceased to exist and complaining about what was present while emphasizing his exposure to the former). "Objectively," flamenco guitar has only improved over the years, especially from a point of view like Segovia's. Again, I don't know much about him, but, if he did actually get invited to parties with "Real Flamenco," I can imagine what those parties might have been like.
Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: the true tradition of the flamen... (in reply to Guest)
quote: All that notwithstanding, it cannot be denied that he was the single most influential individual in the history of classical guitar, and more than anyone brought it to its position today in the world of music.
quote:
No disrespect but what a crock. During WWII the race was on for nuclear power. We got it first but others, working independently also got it, hence the cold war.
If not Segovia, John Williams perhaps. The old man is overrated. Long live Barrios, a gentleman, a poet, a Romantic, and a man willing to give of himself. A man who incorporated many regional and local styles into his repertoire, injecting them with classical harmony.
Three comments on the exchange between Prominent Critic and Romerito cited above.
A. Prominent Critic is simply stating that Segovia was "the single most influential individual in the history or classical guitar," and in my opinion his observation is correct and undeserving of being called a "crock."
B. Where would john Williams be without the precedent set by Segovia? And as for Barrios, I agree he was a master, but as influential as Segovia? I don't think so. Neither Williams nor Barrios have had the worldwide impact of Segovia. Segovia's opinion of flamenco and its practitioners has nothing to do with his influence on classical guitar.
C. By "the race was on for nuclear power" during WW II, I assume what is meant is the atomic bomb as a weapon. It is incorrect to suggest that others (the Soviet Union) working independently, also got it. The Soviet Union indeed got it, but was spared a great deal of independent research and trial & error by Julius Rosenberg, Klaus Fuchs, and others who were conducting espionage on behalf of the USSR and passed atomic secrets to the Soviets. That the Soviets got the bomb when they did was not the result of "working Independently" at all.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3433
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: the true tradition of the flamen... (in reply to NormanKliman)
quote:
if he did actually get invited to parties with "Real Flamenco," I can imagine what those parties might have been like.
Segovia was friends with both the composer Manuel de Falla and Federico Garcia Lorca, a competent musician as well as a great poet. One of them, I don't remember which, told of the young Segovia showing up after daylight at his residence in Granada with a guitar, a wine skin and a couple of cantaores. This was around the time of the 1922 Concurso.
The stated purpose of the 1922 Concurso in Granada was to restore the purity of flamenco. Famous artists active at the time included Pastora Pavon "La Niña de Los Peines, Antonio Chacon, Manuel Torre, Pastora's brothers Arturo and Tomas, and the guitarists Javier Molina and Juan Gandulla "Habichuela"--a star studded cast that would today be regarded as "flamenco puro".
These apparently were not sufficiently pure for the intellectuals who organized the Concurso. First prize in cante went to an old man from the country no one had ever heard of. Afterward he approached Segovia and asked whether he remembered the old man working for the uncle Segovia lived with as a boy.
Segovia's attitude toward students and his artistic "inferiors" was far from unique. It was simply anachronistic. I graduated from high school just outside Washington, DC in 1955. I had ample opportunity to experience and hear of the "maestro" attitude of the greats of the day, like Toscanini, Stokowski, Heifetz, Szell and others, including to some extent my trumpet teacher, the first trumpet of the National Symphony. By the time Segovia's master classes were filmed, the "Maestro" era was long past, but Segovia survived into the new era without changing his attitudes.
RE: the true tradition of the flamen... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
One of them, I don't remember which, told of the young Segovia showing up after daylight at his residence in Granada with a guitar, a wine skin and a couple of cantaores. This was around the time of the 1922 Concurso.
Yes, I'm sure he had a few drunken nights in his youth, and there are lots of drunks singing at night in the street in many towns in Andalusia. I think that if flamenco had ever meant anything to Segovia, and if he'd had much contact with the real thing, he wouldn't have spoken so badly of it later in his life.
quote:
Famous artists active at the time included Pastora Pavon "La Niña de Los Peines, Antonio Chacon, Manuel Torre, Pastora's brothers Arturo and Tomas, and the guitarists Javier Molina and Juan Gandulla "Habichuela"--a star studded cast that would today be regarded as "flamenco puro".
These apparently were not sufficiently pure for the intellectuals who organized the Concurso.
They were excluded from the competition because they were professionals. The intellectuals were mistakenly looking for "cante jondo" among non-professionals. That alone indicates to me that Lorca and Falla didn't really understand flamenco.
EDIT: Torre and Pastora weren't even allowed to vote. More information in this interesting article:
First prize in cante went to an old man from the country no one had ever heard of. Afterward he approached Segovia and asked whether he remembered the old man working for the uncle Segovia lived with as a boy.
I think the first prize ("premio de honor") was not awarded. Tenazas, the guy you're talking about, won second prize and Manolo Caracol was also awarded in the children's category.
EDIT: According to the article linked above, first prize was for "siguiriyas gitanas," second prize for "serranas, polos, cañas and soleares," and third prize for "martinetes-carceleras, tonás, livianas and saetas viejas."
Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: the true tradition of the flamen... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
quote:
B. Where would john Williams be without the precedent set by Segovia? And as for Barrios, I agree he was a master, but as influential as Segovia? I don't think so. Neither Williams nor Barrios have had the worldwide impact of Segovia. Segovia's opinion of flamenco and its practitioners has nothing to do with his influence on classical guitar.
John Williams' interview in I believe Guitar Review, says it all. He trained with his father and was already great. Then he played for Segovia. Segovia said "God touched his brow." Then everybody ASSUMED Williams learned from the Maestro. This myth gets perpetuated and so Segovia's importance is exaggerated. Not saying he is not important, but questioning how important. Big difference.
Romerito, you completely missed the point of my paragraph B above. I was not suggesting that John Williams learned at the feet of Segovia, nor am I "perpetuating" any myth of Segovia being responsible for Williams's great work on the guitar. What I meant by the "precedent set by Segovia" was that Segovia's influence in the world of music, elevating the classical guitar to a position of being almost an orchestral instrument in its own right, paved the way for John Williams to play to audiences in the same manner. Before Segovia, the classical guitar did not possess such stature, after Segovia, it did, and John Williams and other great classical guitarists are the beneficiaries.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: the true tradition of the flamen... (in reply to Jgtr07)
quote:
the true tradition of the flamenco i... New Messages
"The true flamenco, the true tradition of the flamenco is beautiful, beautiful. But, unfortunately, the flamenco is suffering now, exactly like the other important arts..."
"It's very strange to find really, a good flamenco player, or singing, or dancing. Then all that kind of modern flamenco I dislike profoundly."
Posts: 3433
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: the true tradition of the flamen... (in reply to NormanKliman)
@NormanKliman
Thanks for the link. Until now I was unaware of this article. It is the best I have read about Segovia's relationship to flamenco, and about the Granada Concurso. It brings together many threads I was already aware of separately, and adds many others.
Posts: 3433
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: the true tradition of the flamen... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
Why does everyone elevate Segovia to this status?
There's at least as much, if not more deconstruction of Segovia in the article than there is elevation. The last several pages take apart the fallacious musicology of the Granada Concurso organizers. Segovia subscribed to it.
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(that he was jabbing at Manitas)
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