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Ye olde picado debate
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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Ye olde picado debate
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I checked in on the new, old Flamenco-teacher website, which I do about once a month, and noticed another debate on picado. It seems that yet another person has been influenced by Graf-Martinez to change his style of picado. I thought it was interesting that Ricardo said that Nunez pointed out that there are two schools of picado, the bent fingers and the straight. Paco, obviously, is one of the former (this is the Graf-Martinez), and Sabicas is of the latter. I have played both ways and am still very much in the process of experimenting. I think there are benefits and disadvantages of both styles, but here are two things I think I think: One, that your particular physiology must dictate how you play picado or anything else. Two, that the fingertips--how they attack the strings, what you are doing with them and how you perceive them, is much more important than the attitude of your hand.
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Date Jan. 27 2005 5:26:31
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Jon Boyes
Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
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RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo quote:
If I understand correctly, the movement is only at the middle knuckle? No. Maybe that is what he says, but the power and main movement is from the knuckle that attaches the finger to the hand. This is regardless if you have bent or straight fingers. For bent free stroke, your fingers look, from the side, like backwards "J" shapes and swing from the top. They don't have to swing far if you are efficient, so from the front view it LOOKS like only the middle joint moves. When playing rest strokes the fingers are more "L" shaped and move the same way. Check out some video close ups of the masters on Graf Matinez site. Ricardo Interestingly, Martinez has those videos up to demonstrate exactly the opposite - ie that the movement in this style of picado is generated predominantly from the middle joint. With fingers held in that postion, I can't see how it would work otherwise. I can see how the large knuckle would have to be involved in the return part of the stroke (ie after the string has been plucked), otherwise the fingertip would travel through the same path and simply crash into the string. In other words, you have to have extension at the large knuckle for the finger to clear the string it just played on its return. Watched at speed from the side, things are going so fast it would be hard to see what joint is doing is what when, and though there may be flexion/extension at the large kunckle, I think this is what you are seeing (the return). But if the large knuckle were the main point of flexion during the actual stroke (the plucking part), it seems to me that the fingertip would simply travel towards the guitar top rather than towards the next string. A good analogy would be this - it would be like tapping your fingers on a table top. In order for the finger to move through the string and come to rest on the next string, you would need a movement like this - scratching your fingers on a table top. To my mind, the middle joint IS the main driver in this particular style of picado, with the finger joints held like that I can't see it working any other way. BTW, although a lot of people seem to attribute this technique observation to Graf Martinez, Juan Martin said the same thing in his method back in 1977. Jon
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Date Jan. 31 2005 8:48:05
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Ricardo
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Jon Boyes)
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quote:
A good analogy would be this - it would be like tapping your fingers on a table top. In order for the finger to move through the string and come to rest on the next string, you would need a movement like this - scratching your fingers on a table top. To my mind, the middle joint IS the main driver in this particular style of picado, with the finger joints held like that I can't see it working any other way. I used to think this too (mid joint power ala Aaron Shear), and I admit spent some time developing this which was not really wasted time. But that is not where the power is coming from w/ the players in those vids. If you are scratching the table w/ bent fingers and the nails are always in contact w/ the table, that is NOT the feeling. Your nails should be lifting off the table slightly, tapping away. I know from the front or top angle of your hand, it LOOKS like that, but there is a difference from the side angle. There is a big difference in power, feeling, and speed control between driving from the big joint vs the middle joint, regardless if your fingers are bent or straight. Of course ALL the joints are moving a little bit when playing, it is natural. I am not saying the fingers are stiff hooks that swing from the top joint only, but the shape should hold somewhat. Crossing from bass to treble w/ m->i, the index must extend a bit. But the power is not coming from the middle joint to push into the string, just because it moves. Watch the vids from the side angle of PdL in Rito y Geographia, the Solea especially. Always big knuckle power. Try this, hold the fingers straight and play on the table again (tapping), alternating fast i-m. It is ok if your index does not touch. Big knuckle movement right? Keep alternating and slowly bend your fingers until they are at right angles (both tips touching table now) and your finger bones between the big and middle joint are parallel to the table. You should not be scratching the table, you should still be tapping. The power should not have shifted, it's still in the big joint. I know it seems weird, but that is the feeling. Some guys play by only bending the middle joint enough to make it the same lenghth as the index. Check some other guys in Rito like Cepero, and Enrique de Melchor. Middle joint power IS a legit technique, just not what those guys in the vids are doing w/ their picados. Ricardo
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Date Feb. 1 2005 3:26:01
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Ye olde picado debate (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
Those are some great vids. One thing I noticed about Paco's picado is that his form is not "perfect". What I mean by this, is that as he descends toward the e string (floor), his hand opens up slightly and he "reaches" with the fingers. He does not keep the shape of his hand completely constant. Man, we are sad. Why do we care so much about one silly technique? Mike, Personally I think you can over-analyze something to the point that it becomes a hindrance to progress. The folk I've seen playing very fast picado (either live or on video/tv) seem to have different ways of executing it. Copying someone elses hand position exactly, would not be the way to go IMO. Like, decades ago, Paco felt a comfortable hand position for playing picado. He just worked at it, practising and getting it faster and faster. Manolo Sanlucar plays with an entirely different hand position, as does what I could make out of Gerardo Nuñez at the Jerez Festival televised on Ondajerez. Also I would agree with Ricardo that all the joints move to an extent, but the main power is always coming from the main knuckle joint. In fact Paco Peña once pointed this out to me that this was the main difference between Classical and Flamenco picado. Anyway, as you know, I find fast picado technique stuff boring, so who cares... Yawn cheers Ron
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Date Feb. 1 2005 21:16:22
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