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Hi everyone, I'm new to Flamenco, and am in the market for a new Flamenco guitar to practise on. Obviously I'm no Paco De Lucia (yet), so I don't want to spend a fortune on it. I'm looking for an entry level guitar, that's reasonable quality, yet doesn't cost over £300 (English pounds- I am based in England)... so you can obviously rule out your top-of-the-range hand-made types. So far I've only managed to find 3 guitars in this catagory...
1. The Cashmira 51 (£259 from spanishguitars.co.uk) 2. The Cashmira 87 (£276 from staffordguitar.com) 3. The Alhambra 3F (£257 from staffordguitar.com)
Basically, I'd be interested to know if any of these guitars are any good for a beginner. Also if anyone can point out a cheaper/similarly priced one that's worth looking at, or a retailer that makes or sells cheap guitars, it would be appreciated. I also heard they're cheaper in Spain, and happen to have a friend who's from there, and has contacts there, so if you can suggest a maker who might be able to sell me a cheaper/better guitar over there, I could look into it further. Lastly, if there's anything I should look out for on my first Flamenco guitar, I'd be grateful for the advice... stuff like high/low string actions, tapping plates, wood variations, etc, etc.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
IMO it would be impossible to recommend one of those models, because of the variance in quality in cheap factory-made guitars. You really have to go and play them, and play several of the same model even, before you choose. To give you an example - I played a Burguet (at about £800) in Bristol and it was lovely; I played the same model at a shop in London and it was really horrible.
I tried lots of guitars and there were big differences in set up, finish, tone quality, the lot. As you are new to this, I would recommend taking someone with you who knows guitars and knows what to look for.
Make sure you negotiate a set up as part of the purchase - I will bet good money that the nut and saddle will need adjusting as they will be too high. Cheap guitars do not get set up as it make the pricing uncompetitive.
Make sure the guitar hasa golpeadores (tapping plates) or you will have to pay out to have them fitted later.
At your price range, I think you'd be lucky to get cypress/spruce. IIRC, the models at that range are maple/spruce or even maple/laminate, but really it all comes to sound and playability.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to Jon Boyes)
Jon, Thanks for your help. I recently spoke to a top virtuoso guitarist (I won't mention his name, but he happens to be Spanish and plays electric neo-classical/ "shred" type stuff, as well as accoustic stuff, and to a professional level... he's currently recording his latest album in his studio). Anyway, he said that he's tried lots of accoustic guitars, including some by the top luthiers for thousands of pounds. He also said that he didn't find many of them to be anything special, and perhaps not worth the money. Although he did agree that each individual guitar is different. But he did recommend the brand of guitar that he actually uses himself, which happens to be Alhambra (one that I mentioned in my last post, which also happens to be one of the cheaper makes). He said that his Alhambra (which is only a 2C, costing about £250 (English money) has great tone and playability, and is well put together. As you said, all guitars are individual, but that seems to me to be a pretty good review for the Alhambra brand. One thing, though... I think he feels that Flamenco guitars are more collectors items, as opposed to being accessible and playable like a standard classical. he did say that he prefers Mahogany guitars due to their "good sustain", which may be why he uses the Alhambra "2C" (C= classical) as opposed to the "3F" (F= Flamenco). Indeed, as you suggested, for the price of a 3F, you don't get the cypress wood. It is, I think, a spruce or laminate... would that be suitable for a beginner's guitar? He also seemed to think that the very low action of the Flamecos adds too much buzz and decreases playability. But what I want to know is whether I would loose the "authentic" Flamenco sound if I bought a classical guitar like the 2C, as he seems to be suggesting. I'm aware that you can lower the action or add tapping plates later if necessary, but I suppose I did want the sound to be similar to Paco and Al Di Meola's in the 'Mediterranean Sundance/Rio Ancho' song from the 'Friday Night In San Francisco' album. And I'm slightly concerned that it may sound a little too Classical. However, the virtuoso guitarist I spoke to said that there wasn't a dramatic difference between some of the very basic Classicals, and some of the Flamencos, so who knows... Also, I suppose there are classical elements to the stuff I play... obviously I'm a complete beginner to Flamenco and don't want a guitar that is only suitable for hardcore Flamenco. If you listen to artists like Rodrigo Y Gabriela (www.rodgab.com- listen to 'Foc'), they blend neuva flamenca with other genres like jazz and metal. So I do want a flexible, playable guitar too, which must be considered when deciding which model to buy. At the moment, I'm sort of keen on the Alhambras. But I'm not really sure which of the 2 mentioned I should go for. If I can, I'll try and play them both to see which I prefer. But would appreciate any advice in the mean time. Thanks very much.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
James, no offense, but a shredder's opinion about flamenco guitars means nothing. My advice would be to follow Jon's advice, and also to try to associate with a flamenco player. If they have the low end Yamahas in your area, I would just go and buy one of those. I wouldn't expect to find a concert-level guitar in this price range. Just get something decent, pay for a professional set up, and go about learning how to play it. Realize that as you learn and get better, you will want to trade it in... that is just how this thing works. Good luck!
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
Hi James
I 100% agree with Miguel, and just wanna add that as a builder and former employee in a guitarshop, I have a feeling that your friend knows very little about flamenco and guitars. What he says is almost the opposite way around. Good sustain and no buzzing. This guy doesn't know. He sais that there aint much difference between flamenco and classical guitars. If he had added: in your price range, I would have agreed. The flamenco guitar is often the same as the classical, with the same 10cm body width and just another "color" in the laminated wood used for sides and back. I'm not going to recommend any of these guitars, because I think they are to cheap. A true flamenco guitar does cost a bit more. Its not so much the wood etc. Its more the setup and stringheight over soundboard etc. that counts.
I've sold a couple of Alhambra 2C and I find that its a dead guitar without any expression, just one volume, no piano or forte, and that its one of the worst guitars in its price range. and absolutely useless for flamenco. It just rumbles. But thats just me. OK I've never played the cheap Yamaha flamenco, but people I trust like it.
I build both flamenco and classical, and they are so different in all aspects, even using the same wood, that they are both useless played the other way round. ig. playing classical on the flamenco or playing flamenco on the classical.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN Anyway, he said that he's tried lots of accoustic guitars, including some by the top luthiers for thousands of pounds. He also said that he didn't find many of them to be anything special, and perhaps not worth the money.
James, I'm sorry but there are several things that are just plain wrong in your friend's assessment, I don't have time to explain them all. What flamencos want from a guitar is fundamentally different from what a classical guitarist, jazz player or shredder would want. The one thing I would agree is that at the very bottom of the price range - ie 200 pounds or so, I doubt whether you would hear the difference between a flamenco guitar and a classical. In fact you could probably find a cheap classical that is brighter than some of the flamencos at that sort of price. (There is a difference in build though, and the bridge height would make certain flamenco techniques more awkward, which is something else your friend doesn't seem to understand).
First of all, you need to decide what you want a guitar for. You mention you want a sound like PDL & Dimeola yet Di Meola plays a steel strung Ovation, using a pick. That's a very different sound to a flamenco guitar, which is what Paco plays.
If you are seriously into flamenco, buy a flamenco guitar. Be prepared to trade/upgrade as you go along as Mike says. If you want a versatile guitar you can plug in and play all kinds of music including a bit of flamenco I think you are in a different ball game and I would be advising an electro-cutaway of some sort, but it would be tough to get one on your budget.
If you want a flamenco guitar, I would take Mike's advice and mail order the Yamaha from somewhere like Sounds live. They are doing the electro-cutaway version for 400 quid so the straight acoustic one that Mike mentioned should be around 100 quid cheaper.
Although I haven't actually played one, I've read so many good things about them by people who's opinions I trust around the world, and Yamaha's quality control is great so they are likely to more consistent than a cheapo Spanish made model, IMO. Toddk who is a member here has just started making videos with this guitar and IMO it sounds great for the money.
Finally, yes I've played several Alhambras too, including their top of the range flamenco, but wasn't particularly impressed.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to Jon Boyes)
Thanks for your advice, everyone... it's been interesting. So maybe the Alhambra isn't the best option after all. But it was the cheapest... at around £250 it was the lowest priced Flamenco guitar I could find. Maybe that's why some people think the sound quality isn't brilliant. I assure you that the professional guitarist who advised me on the Alhambra is a respected (albeit perhaps lesser-known) musician. He's certainly an accomplished guitarist, but maybe in the shred area rather than Flamenco. Anyway, I think what he might have meant is that if I'm looking for a cheap guitar, there might not be much difference between a cheap Classical and cheap Flamenco, so I might be able to buy a classical and lower the action, etc. I guess you could say that the sound I'm after is sort of Nueva Flamenca influenced. If you visit www.rodgab.com and listen to 'Foc', you'll see that their style borrows from other genres, whilst still maintaining a somewhat Flamenco feel. A bit of a mix. Those guys play hand made guitars by someone called Frank Tate. But I don't think he's based in England, and can't find a website for him, nor find any of his guitars. If anyone knows more, please let me know. So the guitar I'm after needs to be suitable for Flamenco, yet versatile enough to play other stuff too. I suppose I want to be able to practise my Rasgueo, but still be able to bash out a few power chords if need be. Thanks for the Yamaha link... seems promising! A fairly cheap guitar, but yet still made from Cypress... can't be bad. Plus, I have heard that the action is fairly low already, when bought, so hopefully that means less adjusting. You seem to know quite a bit about the Yamaha's (Jon), so I suspect you have one yourself (?). Can you or anyone else recommend the cheapest place to buy a Yamaha "Flamenco Satndard" or "CG171SF" (whichever is cheaper, or if there isn't much difference, whichever would be best suited to my needs). These two guitars are the ones WITHOUT cutaways. I don't think the website you (Jon) posted a link to had any of either, and my web search engines aren't turning out much. I'm based in London, so ideally, if the shop is London based, I can go there and try it out for myself. If it isn't in London, I'll have to mail order it, but this means I won't get to try it, and it may not be suitably set up. Let me know what you think I should do. Ofcourse, if you think either of these wouldn't be best suited to my playing style, then please do let me know. Thanks again.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
I've just done some research on the Yamaha range. It turns out that the "Flamenco Standard" is actually the same guitar as the "CG171SF", its just on their website twice, for some reason. Anyway, I looked into retailers in London for the CG171SF, and literally NOONE has it in stock (what is it with Flamenco guitars? Noone seems to sell them over here!). I even tried Harrods (in Knightsbridge) out of desperation. They seemed confused, then said "sorry, all our Flamenco guitars come from Spain". Then they tried to sell me a Rodriguez. The conversation ended rather abruptly. I eventually found somewhere in London that said they can order one for me. The price is pretty good- under £300. However, it would mean paying up front, and not getting to play the actual instrument beforehand. It would also depend on when Yamaha can supply one. Minimum wait is several weeks, but if there aren't any in the country, that could increase to several months. A long time to wait for a guitar that I haven't actually played. Please feel free to check out the guitar on the www.yamaha.com website under Classical guitars. Let me know if you think I should risk buying a guitar like this or just look elsewhere. Thanks.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
I note a lack of mention of the second-hand market; is it frowned upon? To expect something new and perfect for flamenco for less than £300 (especially if you shop at Harrods, James) to be asking too much.
I found an Alhambra 10Fc on Ebay at £420. It is in excellent condition, one small ding, and I love it. But I think I could have recovered most of my money if I had not wanted it. On the other hand my new Burguet 3F had lost more than a third of its value the moment it left the shop.
Possibly the more important thing is to care for whatever you buy and thus the upgrade will be less painful when the time comes, and I found the need to move on from my first Flamenco came sooner than I had imagined.
Anyway good luck James as it is obvious from what these guys say, and they are far more knowledgeable than me, that you need luck. It surprises me that factory produced models do vary so much, but it is obviously true.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to flyeogh)
Thanks for your comments Nigel. I had checked Ebay... so long as the item is not faulty or damaged, I like to find the cheapest one available. And that usually leads to Ebay. However, my searches were unsuccessful on this occasion. I tried looking first for the Alhambra (without any joy), then again for the Yamaha (and still no luck). In fact, I did run a search for "FLAMENCO GUITAR" and got surprisingly few results. There were a couple of more expensive Spanish luthiers' guitars for sale. But as I said before, the £300 mark is really my absolute maximum (after all, I'm only a beginner). As for shopping at Harrods, I don't usually. But there are very few stockists for Flamenco guitars... even in a big city like London. And often Harrods is a good place for range, as they stock "most" things... albeit at a price. But even they didn't have the Yamaha. I suppose the main problem with Ebay is that you don't know what you're getting. I've made LOTS of purchases through Ebay, and about a third of them didn't live up to my expectations. That's okay when you're buying a CD or pair of jeans, but when you're spending a few hundred pounds on anything, it pays to be cautious. If it requires luck to buy a guitar from a shop, I would say that you must be equally lucky (if not more) buying one via the internet AND second hand. Most people I have spoken to (Flamenco orientated or not) have said that its essential to PLAY a guitar before buying it. Obviously this isn't always possible. But in a shop you can usually return the guitar for a refund if you don't like it. But my experience with Ebay is that sellers don't always offer this option. So what happens if it doesn't play well? I think you were lucky with your purchase, which is good. But there's no shortage of people waiting to rip off the ignorant. Even in shops. Just today some clueless assistant tried to palm me off with a bog standard £99 Classical guitar, saying she didn't have the Yamaha in stock, but that it was the next best thing. Anyway, if I ever see one on Ebay for a reasonable price, I'll definately consider it. Especially if its cheaper. Plus, with the whole "pay before we order it for you" policy that many shops are adopting round here, I may not get to "try before I buy" in any case. So, just as long as it seems genuine and intact... Thanks for yor advice.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
ALTHOUGH, there is a "AZAHAR CIPRES 131" up for sale on Ebay in new condition (in Spain). Its a cypress Flamenco. Price is 180 Euros, which is about £125. It seems good value for a cypress guitar. But I'm obviously not familiar with the make and model, so I'd appreciate anyone's advice who might be. I also wouldn't be able to try it out, and might not even be able to return it if it sucks. Plus the postage from Spain would add another chunk of cash onto the top, but might still work out cheaper than the Yamaha. Anyone with an informed opinion... let me know what you think. Thanks.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN ALTHOUGH, there is a "AZAHAR CIPRES 131" up for sale on Ebay in new condition (in Spain). Its a cypress Flamenco. Price is 180 Euros, which is about £125. It seems good value for a cypress guitar. But I'm obviously not familiar with the make and model, so I'd appreciate anyone's advice who might be.
Retails at around £275 in the Uk - same as ballpark as the other guitars you mentioned earlier. The Azahar top of the range at around £600 quid is OK, but once again when you go to the bottom...
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to flyeogh)
quote:
ORIGINAL: flyeogh I note a lack of mention of the second-hand market; is it frowned upon?
Not at all, the fact is that 2nd hand flamenco guitars are even harder to find in the UK than new ones!
If you watch Ebay UK, you will know that most of the guitars advertised as flamenco guitars simply aren't, and are being sold by people who don't know the difference. You were lucky with that Alhambra.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
I would like to reiterate one more time, my recommendation to just go ahead and order the Yamaha flamenco. Whatever you want to say about the Japanese methods, they are very precise and consistent. I have played one of these in a shop (and my guitar at the time was $2500) and I found it to be pleasing. ToddK, a very good player on this forum, recommends te guitar as well. Finally, one of my ex-partners plays the version of this guitar with the pickup. I recommend this guitar.
I think if you go ahead and get the one with the pickup, it will meet your needs handsomely. It's a versatile instrument.
No, I don't work for Yamaha. But I see a lot of beginners agonizing over these instruments with exotic names like Cordoba and Raimundo and Azahara, and I know, quite simply that they are a waste of money. You will not be disappointed if you get the Yamaha (and maybe--a setup). They are a great, probably unbeatable deal. In fact I may buy one this year for a gig guitar (the one with the pickup).
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Hi Miguel, And thanks for your advice. It looks like the Yamaha is the best option. Although I'm familiar with the CG171SF (Thats the one without the pickup). But not the one with it... do you know the code/reference number? Or maybe can post a link to it on the www.yamaha.com website? Also, you say the one with the pick up is good, but I assume the one without is cheaper. I don't need too much volume, as I don't do gigs yet, only play to myself and learn. Would the standard guitar (without) also be OK? Thanks very much.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
Miguel, Found it... you mean the CGX171SCF (like Jon mentioned also). But it IS more expensive. Is the standard version without the pickup still good? Or should I save up and go for the pickup version? Thanks.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
Depends whether you want to plug in. I want it for a "beater", 2nd guitar to use for gigs. I have to play outside a lot, in the sun (in Phoenix, AZ), so I wouldn't want to bring an expensive guitar to brave the elements. I plug into an amp, so that's what I like. If you need to amplify your instrument, then get the plug in. It also have a cutaway. But if you aren't going to gig, the normal one will probably sound a litle better, and it's cheaper.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
THANKS MIGUEL That settles it... the standard Yamaha CG171SF it is. Provided no one convinces me otherwise in the next few days! I've managed to track one down for £269 (if the quote the guy gave me was correct)... which is pretty damn cheap! Unfortunately, it will take quite some time to arrive... but hopefully the wait will be worth it! Thanks again everyone.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
James,
I agree fully with Miguel. I played one without the pickup a year or so ago and was very impressed. The only thing it needed was a lowering of the saddle and new strings.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
Jon
I agree there are not many flamenco guitars but you must connect to www.ebay.es if you want the best chance. I know Ebay think they show the international as well but they are a great marketing company, not a great IT company.
And while on Ebay if anyone sees a Conde from an Ebayer "spaincorner" (he's tried A25 - A28)its a con, I have the guys address in Madrid if anyone wants to visit him.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
Nigel, How can you recommend E-bay. There's hardly any security at all, and its full of people taking advance. As said, use it for a CD or a pair of jeans, but a guitar.... I'll never recommend it.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
Anders
You are right of course and anything ebay must be treated with utmost care but the truth is I have bought 9 items in the last year including two guitars (600Es and 2300Es) and a number of bandurrias without a single problem. What I do find is that you attract the con men offering similar products after the event.
But I always make direct contact with the seller and you can never be too careful. But there are opportunities. I bought my V Bernal from a professional player in Seville on ebay.es and later this year I will go and meet him and he will show me how it really should be played (and possibly how he gouged the golpeador under the bass strings near the rosette). Hope one day I can play like that.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
I think I'll order the Yamaha CG171SF tomorrow (provided that my guitar teacher doesn't convince me otherwise). If anyone else in the UK is interested in getting a Yamaha, let me know, as I've found a shop in West London that's prepared to sell them for £229... which is a pretty good deal, I think. Unfortunately there aren't any in the country, so I'll have to wait until March to get it. But it should be good.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN I've found a shop in West London that's prepared to sell them for £229... which is a pretty good deal, I think.
Its a ridiculously good deal. As you discovered, stocks are low in the UK and its had enough finding a supplier. The only one I found is selling them at £319.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to Jon Boyes)
Jon, I wasn't able to find ANY actually IN STOCK, but found several shops that said they could order me one. I did quite a bit of legwork, and scoured the internet, then phoned virtually every guitar shop in London. The second cheapest was the Soho Sound House- www.sohosoundhouse.com , at £269. But the shop that sold me mine (I just ordered it a few minutes ago) for £229 is called "Unplugged" (118 Uxbridge Road, Hanwell, London W7. Tel: 0208 840 2715. Email: unplugged@Btinternet.com). They also only required a 20% deposit rather than the 50% that Soho Sound House asked for. Plus, they said they will set up the guitar for free (including the action)... although they specialise in classical guitars, so I suspect he may keep the action slightly higher than standard for Flamenco guitars. But I should be able to ask him to change it when I go there to pick it up, or if that fails, I'll lower it myself (with the guidance of the forum members). I saw the advert for Unplugged in a copy of "What Guitar?" magazine, and it states... "The lowest priced acoustics in the UK!". I'm not sure if that's always the case, but I'm sure you'll agree their price for the CG171SF is a good start. They also do mail order, so they can send you the guitar if you can't make it to Hanwell. Although they don't have a website, as far as I know. Now the only problem is the month wait until March, when it should arrive... but hopefully it'll be worth the wait!
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JAM)
JAM, I believe you that the Alhambra is good. As I said in one of my other posts, a virtuoso guitarist recommended the Alhambra range to me. And although, to be fair, he's more of a neo-classical/"shred" virtuoso, he IS a professional musician (guitarist), so his opinion should count for something. I was very tempted by the Alhambras, and you can't really argue with the price range... the lower models are just about the cheapest Flamenco guitars you can buy. And although they're not made of Cypress wood (which was one of the reasons I opted for the Yamaha CG171SF, which I got at a similar price), I suspect an Alhambra Flamenco model would be more than adequate for a beginner, or someone who isn't a serious Flamenco artist. Flamenco snobs may turn their noses up, but if you can't affort a Pedro de Miguel (or even a Yamaha), then I'd say the Alhambra might be a good place to start.
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
Jame, buy what you want and whan you learn more of flamenco you will than know what is best for you or maybe you will stick to guitar you will buy now. Just enjoy in music. Adios
RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENC... (in reply to GUITARMANR)
Rich, I did buy the Yamaha in the end! Generally, I am quite happy with it- it has a good Flamenco sound. The only problem I have with it is that it has quite a strong bass tone, and I was under the impression that Flamenco guitars were supposed to be more treble orientated. For example, if I play a few powerchords on the yamaha I get quite a fierce "growl". I'm not sure if that is normal with all the Yamahas or just my particular one. But Anders once told me not to compare a cheap guitar (such as the Yamaha) with expensive instruments that the famous guitarists use, as it only leads to frustration. I would be interested to hear if your Yamaha also has loud bass tone, though!
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Jame, buy what you want and whan you learn more of flamenco you will than know what is best for you or maybe you will stick to guitar you will buy now. 
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