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Who introduced the guitar in flamenco?   You are logged in as Guest
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kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

Who introduced the guitar in flamenco? 
I am reading a book now called: Duende: A message about Andalucia, flamenco and gypsys.

In this book was mentioned that the "payos (non-gypsies)" introduced the guitar into the palo seco's and that the gypsy culture took over pretty quickly themselves. Is this true?

I am not so far in the book yet but it is a very interesting book written as a travel-way of writing with lots of information where he comes, who he mets, what they have to do with flamenco, al lot about cante, some nive verses etc.

I am not sure if it is translated, but if you can read dutch its available here: http://www.bol.com/nl/p/nederlandse-boeken/duende/666779070/index.html

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 3:26:45
Guest

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to kozz) 
Thanks Kozz
here is a link to the english version
on order!
http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0767911679/189-1313259-3373317?SubscriptionId=19BAZMZQFZJ6G2QYGCG2

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 5:28:16
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to kozz) 
Nobody knows, but most likely it was both in equal proportions. There are very old references to the popularity of the guitar among Spaniards. As mentioned in a recent thread, Estébanez Calderón wrote in 1847 about a party that he'd seen years earlier at which El Planeta played a guitar. Molina and Mairena wrote in "Mundo y formas" that the guitar was originally non-gypsy, although they provide no further information to back up the claim.

I advise you not to pay much attention to absolute statements like that in books like that unless some kind of reference is included (even so, references have to be checked).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 6:14:56
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to kozz) 
Great AlVal, I had not checked Amazon!

I already hoped this would grep your attention Norman, because you are our reference.
I´ll keep your advise in mind!

There is so much info in it, that probably only after a couple of reads things will become clear. So many names, a lot about the culture etc.

I am not sure if he did mention some names within it, I´ll have to check...This is actually my first book about flamenco without tabs in it, so perhaps too enthousiastic about all the new info. (The other book you had advised me Norman I did not buy yet because it was pretty pricy)

Thanks for your advise Norman!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 6:32:11
 
Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

here is a link to the english version

Al, Kozz's book is by Ivo Hermans, the one you found is a totally different book by (the notorious in these parts) Jason Webster, a controversial work of fiction which has been discussed here some time ago. Not recommended, or at least, 'buyer beware'.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 13:23:48
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to Estevan) 
You beat me to it Esteban. They are two different books and the Dutch one hasn't been translated into English yet so its only Kozz and Annemarie here who can enjoy it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 14:05:49
 
Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to Pimientito) 
quote:

You beat me to it Esteban. They are two different books and the Dutch one hasn't been translated into English yet so its only Kozz and Annemarie here who can enjoy it.

There are a few other nederlands speakers here too, Peter (gerundino) and the long-lost ? Koella, and I think maybe a few more. Of course, the rest of us can enjoy it, we just can't understand it. I know a few words of Dutch, and I think Simon knows quite a few more, but I always find it a very entertaining language to look at or hear, even if I don't understand much. (but not to the extent of buying a book!)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 14:29:38
 
Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to kozz) 
It was Mike Oldfield who introduced flamenco guitar in 1973 on "Tubular Bells" as in "Flamenco guitar"

and my God is it boring or what? Another idiot from Reading, England like Ricky Gervais and me. And yes, I have met both of them.



p.s. Actually, I think it was "Spanish guitar" and not "Flamenco guitar" - pero me gustan mis bromas pequeñas.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 18:18:15
 
Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to Estevan) 
quote:

I think Simon knows quite a few more


Huh, a couple of years in Amsterdam and I learned about 4 words. I think it is one of the ugliest languages to listen to but I love it to bits as I do the Dutch. I would happily live out my days in there on the canals, if I could only get back again.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 18:26:53
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to Escribano) 
quote:

I think it is one of the ugliest languages to listen to


Ah kin tell ye huvney been tae Glezga man...

Zat right?

(See.. you.. Jimmy! )


I was in Amsterdam once with my guitar and along with this American guy.
I was playing something on this public bench when we were approached by two guys who asked if I could come down to their club later on that evening.

They gave me this card which said "Christian Youth Fellowship" so I tried to get out of it, but they were very persuasive, so I reluctantly agreed.

Anyway we went along with rather heavy hearts since I had promised and went through the doors.

Jeez...there was drink flying around everywhere and no sooner had I finished playing a piece of Flamenco, than I had a fat joint passed to me! (which I refused since I don't really dig the stuff!)

What a place....so different from any Christian Youth Movement here in Scotland for sure!

Dutch people are cool!

cheers,

Ron

PS: To me the ugliest sounding accent here in the UK anyway is Brummy...I think it beats Glasgwegian by miles..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 19:16:52
 
Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

Ah kin tell ye huvney been tae Glezga man...

Zat right?


I can tell you have never been to Glasgow man... that right?

With you on Brummie.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 20:15:33
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to kozz) 
Manitas de Plata introduced it in 1873. And he is still playing somewhere in France.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 20:28:06
Guest

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to Estevan) 
quote:

'buyer beware'

thanks estevan..
damn..will try to find the threads..

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 20:35:39
 
veet

 

Posts: 231
Joined: Nov. 29 2004
From: L.A.

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to Guest) 
Estela Zatania's book Flamencos en la Gañania, has lots of great interviews with gitanos who spent the whole harvest season in the fields (in the middle of the last century.) They entertained themselves every night in their barracks, but rarely was a guitar seen, once in a while a señorito or one of the better off manijeros would have one. But by and large it was cante, palmas, and baile unaccompanied.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 21:57:57
Guest

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to veet) 
thanks for this
Be great if i could get a few suggested reads on flamenco either from a historical, cultural view as well as ethno musical other than what appears in method books etc. i know there,s alot online but hard copy would be great. Is there much out there? Sitting in an airport at present wasting time...could use a good book!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 22:58:45
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to kozz) 
Apart from method books, and biographical books, the best book I have ever read about flamenco is "The Flamencos of Cadiz Bay," by Gerald Howson. Exceptionally well written, and vastly entertaining as well, but more than all that it gives wonderful insight into the way of life that gave birth to the art.

The author, an Englishman, spent a period of time in Cadiz learning to play flamenco guitar, and became a close friend of the great cantaor, Aurelio Selles. He relates his adventures and misadventures among the flamencos, and weaves in vignettes about the lives of people he encountered. Highly recommended.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 23:15:57
 
GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to kozz) 
I don't know who introduced the guitar to flamenco ...


... but the story goes that they killed the guy who showed-up with an accordion.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 23:52:33
Guest

RE: Who introduced the guitar in fla... (in reply to Ramon Amira) 
much appreciated....guess my amazon order will be fodder for the fireplace but thanks for the other recomendation...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 30 2010 1:53:15
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