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mentions Carlos Ramos as being Paco de Lucia's first teacher. (I assume this means other than PdL's father). I emailed Michael Fath and verified that this is the same Carlos Ramos that used to play at El Bodegon in Washington DC with Manolo Leiva. I took lessons from Ramos on-and-off for 8 years during the 60's, and never discussed PdL with him (at the time Carlos spoke little English, and I spoke little Spanish) , so never heard this about Carlos. But he was also a very modest man. He did tell me that Ramon Montoya was his teacher, but I never knew about a PdL connection.
Does anybody know anything about this history?
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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
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RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to a_arnold)
Carlos Ramos was well known in the sixties and seventies in the US and in Canada, and he performed all over the world. I have one book of sheet music of some of his solos, including reproductions of numerous reviews (all of them generic I might add – but that belongs to that other thread) and one of them says that he came from Malaga, so that's not all that far from Algeciras. Who knows. A more likely connection is that Carlos Ramos toured with Jose Greco at one point, and so did Paco when he was fairly young. Still, by then Paco was already a virtuoso, so it seems unlikely that at that point he would be taking lessons from Carlos Ramos, or from anyone. It's probably one of those apocryphal stories that somehow gain traction.
RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to a_arnold)
Some new info: Paco de Malaga is the source of this info on PdL's first teacher being Carlos Ramos.
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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
Posts: 1025
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RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to a_arnold)
quote:
Some new info: Paco de Malaga is the source of this info on PdL's first teacher being Carlos Ramos.
Well, since both Paco de Malaga and Carlos Ramos came from Malaga, I think we can safely assume that they knew each other, and therefore that Paco de Malaga got this information straight from Carlos Ramos. That doesn't necessarily make it true, but it would seem preposterous that Carlos Ramos would make up a story like that. I have heard his playing, and he was a world class virtuoso in his own right, so I hardly think he needed to be envious of Paco or any other guitarist where he would feel the need to concoct something like that.
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RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to a_arnold)
P.S. I wonder if Paco himself has ever addressed this question. Maybe someone on this forum who knows him well enough, or knows someone who knows him well enough, can ask Paco. It's certainly an interesting question.
RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
I wonder if Paco himself has ever addressed this question.
PdL or PdM?
quote:
it would seem preposterous that Carlos Ramos would make up a story like that.
It is preposterous. I knew Ramos well enough to know that. He was a kind and modest man. In the 8 years I knew him, he never mentioned being PdL's first teacher, nor, knowing him, would I expect him to have done so.
No, if that is a false rumor, then someone else started it. Possibly one of Ramos' own students who wanted to inflate his own pedigree. But coming from Paco de Malaga, I expect it is true.
Ramos played for Manolo Leiva for many years at El Bodegon. Leiva is still alive, and teaching cante to Marija Temo, whom I know. Maybe I can get her to ask Leiva. I'll give it a shot.
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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
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RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to a_arnold)
quote:
quote:
I wonder if Paco himself has ever addressed this question.
PdL or PdM?
I was wondering if PdL himself has ever addressed this question. I have not read either of what I think are the only two full biographies of Paco – one by Pohren about the whole family, and one by Paco Sevilla, and I'm wondering if either of those mentions the subject.
But based on what you say about Carlos Ramos' character and personality, and assuming it is true that this information came from Paco de Malaga, it seems reasonable to conclude that Ramos was indeed Paco's first teacher (apart from his father). But of course it's not easy to define what that means. He may have given him X number of lessons, etc – OR – he might have taught him for a fairly extended period. Who knows. I still think it's an extremely interesting question. I wonder if anyone on the Foro has ever heard anything about this question.
Let us know if you find out anything further from Manolo Leiva.
RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
Let us know if you find out anything further from Manolo Leiva.
I have emailed Marija Temo. She is on tour right now, but says she will ask Manolo Leiva for the straight scoop next time she sees him. So . . . watch this space for further developments!
_____________________________
"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
I was wondering if PdL himself has ever addressed this question. I
You're absolutely right, Prominent. PdL wouldn't have neglected to mention such an important fact to his biographers, nor woul they hae neglected to ask. I know that he mentioned Sabicas as having given him some pointers -- maybe lessons too -- but I don't remember any mention of a "first teacher" (other than his father). Maybe we should get copies of those biographies.
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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
I have not read either of what I think are the only two full biographies of Paco – one by Pohren about the whole family, and one by Paco Sevilla
i have, at least, i've read the Paco Sevilla one. He says;
"His [Paco's] father and his brother were his primary teachers" p4
He quotes Paco as saying, "When I was about ten, I was taking in great quantities of Niño Ricardo's music. He used to visit my father in Algeciras.... I ended up possessing his music.... Before that, I studied for hours with my father, doing my first finger exercises under his approving eye." p5
The same book also says Paco's brother Ramon toured as second guitarist with Juanito Valderrama and Niño Ricardo in the late fifties. p5
In the early sixties Paco joined José Greco's company and toured the States, meeting Sabicas, who encouraged Paco to play his own music, and also Mario Escudero, who introduced Paco to the music of Esteban Sanlucar. Paco was third guitarist in the company after Ricardo Modrego and Manolo Barón (uncle of Manolo Franco). pp 9- 13
Of his meeting with Sabicas Paco is quoted as saying; "...at that time I played only the music of Niño Ricardo. I don't know exactly why he said to me what he did, but I do know that he influenced me a great deal. He told me that a guitarist should play his own music, that he didn't have to copy anybody." "From that time on, I forgot everything I knew of Ricardo's" p12
It continues "That summer of '64 found Paco still training under the tutelage of his father." p14
From there Paco continues touring and starts recording. No mention of any other guitar teachers.
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RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to a_arnold)
Right. The whole things seems strange. Paco started so young - as did most of the great virtuosos - that probably by the time he was at the age that the average person would first even start taking lessons, he was already an advanced player, so what need would he have for some other teacher besides his father and Ramon.
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RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to a_arnold)
It begins to seem unlikely, though I would be curious to hear what Manolo Leiva has to say about it. I did just notice one thing in Mark's last post, talking about what Paco Sevilla said. Mark quotes Paco Sevilla as saying that "His [Paco's] father and his brother were his PRIMARY teachers" p4. That at least seems to imply that there were other teachers, so perhaps Carlos Ramos was one of them, and therefore possibly the first.
RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to a_arnold)
quote:
PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos?
Just pass his management a mail, I´m 100% sure they will answer it. A much more interesting question would be: Who was this dork who is responsible for Pacos haircut?
RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
What does it really matter who showed PdL his first basic stuff on the guitar?
it doesn't....
....but it can be interesting to check out the influences of a big name artist. i read interviews and articles and often look out for recordings of the people that they listened to when they were younger or learning or whatever. it just gives me a bigger picture and context etc.
....also if someone is namedropping or using some sort of connection of this sort for publicity it can be good to actually verify if it's true or not.
RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
I knew Carlos pretty well, he was my father's teacher.
I doubt he would have neglected to tell me he taught Paco de Lucia.
I knew him pretty well too. I took lessons from him for 8 years. He never mentioned having PdL as a student, and I never asked -- but then Carlos wasn't the type to boast; he let his playing speak for itself. So I'm going to have to wait until I hear from Manolo Leiva to decide on this one.
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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to a_arnold)
So Todd and Tony have given first hand accounts of meetings with the man himself over years and years in which he never even brought the subject up..even during chats about PdL.
That means only one thing...
HE MUST BE LYING
Just like the Mafia killed JFK and the British Royal Family had Diana assassinated...
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RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to a_arnold)
I had Fath's first album in the 90's and I thought it sucked. More so because of recording quality then playing.
About Ramos/Paco connection. Probably some confusion as many guitarists of that generation claim Paco's FATHER as their OWN teacher. Perhaps that was the confusion if Ramos even claimed that. Probably Fath, confused a story of Ramos with one of Paco de Malaga, another local flamenco that played at the same bar EL Bodegon in DC.
I have a friend who's teacher was ED FREEMAN. He was based in TEXAS and transcribed Carlos Ramos's music, and probably knew him personally too. I have the score somewhere. Freeman took a group of students to Spain when PDL was a youngster. My friend was among this group and made friends with the young PDL at the time. PDL was looked at as a scary monster coming up through the ranks quick. FREEMAN transcribed also PDL's first 45 record (some tracks available in the Integral box set.) So.....again perhaps some confusion there with Freeman students, PDL, and the Ramos transcription/connection. All these folks were rubbing elbows in 1964 ish....
Michael Fath was a young rocker, and probably had his stories mixed up do to these shady connections.
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RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to a_arnold)
I had an ancient recording by Carlos Ramos that has been lost over the years, but I remember his playing, and I can tell you – as Todd confirms - that he was a virtuoso of the first order, who had no need to be envious of anybody to start making up a story like that. Nor can I think of any good reason why Paco de Malaga would say that if it were not true. What is there to be gained by it. And I don't agree with "who cares." Maybe if it was some lesser guitarist. But when you're talking about a player like Paco, I think it's very interesting to learn about everything that - and anyone who – contributed to making him the guitarist that he is.
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RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to a_arnold)
P.S. Just noticed Ricardo's last post, which criss-crossed mine. I have a book that has the very music that Ricardo alluded to. It has Carlos Ramos' music, transcribed by Edward Freeman. Guajiras – Petenera – Malaguena. Copyright 1967 – Charles Hansen Music Co.
One look at the music is enough to make clear that he was – as has been said – a top virtuoso. There's a significant possibility that Ricardo has it right – just mass confusion involving many people and many years gone by. Who knows who said what and when. I would still be curious to know if there was any truth to it.
RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
I would still be curious to know
Fath told me that he got the story direct from Paco de Malaga.
Marija Temo says she will try to verify one way or the other next time she sees Manolo Leiva, who would probably be the most reliable living source other then PdL himself. I don't know if Anita is still alive. She might know too.
I do know this: Ramos never made this claim to me, but I also know he was too modest to ever mention it unless asked directly, and I never even thought to ask him directly. He asked me who I listened to when I started lessons with him. Sabicas, Nino Ricardo, Ramon Montoya sprang to mind (I was 12 at the time, in 1962), and, of course, I went to El Bodegon every chance I got, and had Carlos' record of solos, and the one with Escudero. The conversation turned to the fact that Ramon Montoya was Carlos' mentor (you can certainly hear the influence in the falsetas), and that Sabicas and Carlos were taking lessons from Montoya at the same time.
He asked me why I didn't mention Carlos Montoya . . . I was embarrassed by the fact that I didn't like his playing much. I think that was when Carlos decided to take me as a student. Never a criticism of Montoya, though. Nor a mention of PdL.
I have some 45's from the mid 60's of PdL and Camaron, but I don't know when their earliest recording was. Probably was 45 rpm. . . anybody know offhand? Maybe '62 was too early for PdL to be as famous to a 12-year old as Nino Ricardo and Sabicas.
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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
played at the same bar EL Bodegon in DC.
Incidentally, I spent many nights at El Bodegon, but never went into La Fonda, which was next door and probably shared a kitchen. I don't think they had music -- at least not flamenco. Is La Fonda still there? I know El Bodegon is no longer a flamenco bar. . . although it is still there under the same name, I believe. Maybe not.
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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
Posts: 1025
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RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to a_arnold)
quote:
Sabicas and Carlos were taking lessons from Montoya at the same time.
I have never in my life heard that Sabicas took lessons from Ramon Montoya. It seems highly improbable. The way I have always heard the story from multiple sources, including directly from Mario Escudero, who was as close to Sabicas as anyone, was that Sabicas never really had a teacher, and simply started learning and playing on his own at the age of five or so. And he was performing from the age of around eight.
I begin to suspect that this all may be a question of semantics. These days, when we say "lessons" or "teacher" etc., we know what we mean – a formal arrangement between teacher and student, and one that usually goes on for some period of time. Very possibly back then there would naturally have been intercourse between flamenco guitarists, and an exchange and discussion of musical ideas, and even some falsetas, or parts. Probably some discussion on various aspects of technique, all this much like goes on today among guitarists, and even right here on this forum. So if Sabicas was sitting around chatting with Ramon Montoya, and maybe Carlos Ramos was there at the same time, all of them naturally with guitars in hand, if Montoya imparted a tidbit or two, that might be described by one of them as a "lesson," thereby making Montoya the "teacher." We know that Paco met Sabicas, he could easily have also met Ramos, and maybe Ramos showed him a thing or two. It's very hard to define what Ramos might have meant by that, if in fact he did say it.
RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
This thread reads like gutter press
Agreed. It's just a bit unfair to suggest a guy is lying about something that (as far as we know) he never spoke about.
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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
Posts: 15242
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RE: PdL's first teacher: Carlos Ramos? (in reply to a_arnold)
If you guys really care, I can call Paco de Malaga today and clear it up. I still think there is confusion on M. Fath's part that is all.
PDL first recorded with his brother in 1962, Los Chiquitos de Algeciras. His short 45 of original solos plus montoya's rondeña was in 1964. He did three albums of duets with Ricardo Modrego in 1965, flamenco, lorca, and copla. His first solo LP album came in 1967. He toured with cepero camaron and maria vargas in 1968-9 and gets a false credit for accompanying camaron live at that time. It was cepero accompanying every singer. Finally he DID record his first album with camaron at that time, 1968 or 9 I believe. Also latin american duets with his brother, AND his next solo ablum Fantasia Flamenca. Busy times for him....