RE: Charging for gigs

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Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

"guitarrero" is an old school name for "guitarrista" as far as I know

Not to be too nit picky here Ron but a "guitarrero" is a guitar maker....at least all the guitar makers in Granada call themselves guitarreros.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2010 16:48:42

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Pimientito)

Hi Pim,

I'm pretty sure Anders said that in Huelva a guitarrista is still sometimes called a guitarrero.

Which sorta makes sense as the ending "ero" seems to indicate someone who does something related to the first part of the word eg Carbonero, Panadero

So guitarrero could mean to "do" something with guitars (make guitars or make music) eg Rumbero?

I know the modern words are guitarrista for player and guitarrero for maker, but can you be 100% sure that was always the case?

(I mean even looking at it from the "merchant" point of view, a "minstrel" in old England was regarded as a "merchant" of music, as were the Spanish Flamenco guitar players who were available for hire.)

In the old days I'm also pretty sure a guitar maker referred to himself as a "constructor de guitarras" rather than "guitarrero", in the same way that you never heard the word "palo" to describe a song form 40 years ago.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2010 18:37:12

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

So guitarrero could mean to "do" something with guitars (make guitars or make music) eg Rumbero?

Interesting... a carbonero makes charcoal and a panadero makes bread but a mesero is a waiter, he doesn't make tables. Although he might "make up" a table.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2010 20:21:23

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

a carbonero makes charcoal and a panadero makes bread

Yeah...and I think a Carbonero can also be a Coalman and a Panadero perhaps someone running around in a delivery van selling bread in small outlying villages?
Not actually making the stuff.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2010 20:32:32

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Yeah...and I think a Carbonero can also be a Coalman and a Panadero perhaps someone running around in a delivery van selling bread in small outlying villages?
Not actually making the stuff.

Not sure about coalman, but the guy going around selling bread from a van was often from the bakery so it gets blurred, as does all language.

p.s. a huevera is an egg cup and cajero is now an ATM.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2010 20:45:26

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

it gets blurred, as does all language.

Exactly. A baker bakes but a grocer doesn't Groce.
In Spanish a camarero doesnt make cameras.
Its not always easy to say what a word should be or how you think it might be correctly used. You can only go by how its actually used. Most flamencos I know understand a guitarrero to be a guitar maker. If you use that word for a player it will cause confusion.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2010 8:10:08

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

If you use that word for a player it will cause confusion.

Well exactly...these days.
But how about in the past?

40 years ago to use the word "gay" meant to be in a light, happy mood.

"Cool", meant something which felt refreshingly cold.

"MC" was a Master of Ceremonies, an official who took charge and maintained order, convention and protocol in grand public or private ceremonies.

Now an MC is any ragamuffin kid with a boom box and a mic.....plus a baseball cap worn the wrong way round and the arse of his trousers hanging below his knees.

So to say that these words always had their current meanings would be incorrect.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2010 8:31:21

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Ron.M)

This sounds like a conversation with my dad.
He still listens to the "wireless" and thinks I should "go courting".
I dont know what guitar makers were called 40 years ago but the current nomenclature makes sense because
1. a bread shop is a panaderia, therefore the man who makes the bread and sells it is the panadero.
2. A shoe shop is a zapateria. Nowadays someone will buy shoes from Taiwan and hire a girl to run the shop at minimum wage but in the old days it was a guy who made the shoes and sold his wares in the shop so he was the zapatero.
3. A guitar shop is a guitarreria. It make sense that the guy who makes the wares for his shop should be a guitarrero.

I think if a guitarrista called him self a guitarrero at some point it doesnt seem correct....but then again that happens a lot in andaluz. I'll check my old records (gramaphones) to see if the players are reffered to as guitarristas or guitarreros.
I still stand by my previous post though...if you call yourself a guitarrero today in Spain you will be calling yourself a guitar maker.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2010 10:26:42

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

This sounds like a conversation with my dad.
He still listens to the "wireless" and thinks I should "go courting".

Quite right too IMO!

(Always makes me wonder why in this modern age the young folk refer to "Wireless Internet" instead of the the more accurate, modern and tekky "Radio Internet".

)

BTW...I found this...

http://www.lib-art.com/artgallery/24807-young-man-in-a-landscape-the-guitarrero-courbet-gustave.html

Maybe he's just built the guitar and is just testing it and wondering whether or not to drill a soundport?

(Mind you...it does look a bit like Anders, with the red pants an' all..

)

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2010 11:20:55

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Ron.M)

The RAE (Spanish language authority) accepts both, but I've only ever heard "guitarrero" used to refer to guitar makers. About 20 years ago, I learned this from my first teacher, and a little less than 20 years ago one of the guys at Conde Hermanos said that the words (aside from "constructor") are "luthier" and "guitarrero" and that he preferred the latter.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2010 11:53:45

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

1. a bread shop is a panaderia, therefore the man who makes the bread and sells it is the panadero.
2. A shoe shop is a zapateria. Nowadays someone will buy shoes from Taiwan and hire a girl to run the shop at minimum wage but in the old days it was a guy who made the shoes and sold his wares in the shop so he was the zapatero.
3. A guitar shop is a guitarreria. It make sense that the guy who makes the wares for his shop should be a guitarrero.

Does this mean that a Torero is a man who makes bulls?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2010 13:32:57

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Or a Cajonero a person who makes cajones?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2010 13:43:06

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Pimientito)

No, no, no. A Cajonero does not make cajones – he makes cojones.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2010 13:56:39

akatune

Posts: 188
Joined: Mar. 28 2008

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 21 2012 22:18:35

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2010 22:49:42

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Pimientito)

more like see who is willing to do it free.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2010 4:47:35

akatune

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2010 8:00:18

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to akatune)

Here's a design based on a drawing by Kozz ...

(Simple and to the point and slightly anarchistic don't you think?)

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2010 16:51:54

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Here's a design based on a drawing by Kozz ...

(Simple and to the point and slightly anarchistic don't you think?)

On the card "erroneo" is spelled erroneously.

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2010 18:05:43

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Pimientito)

Score one for RON!

THIS IS WHAT RON SAID -

quote:

Which sorta makes sense as the ending "ero" seems to indicate someone who does something related to the first part of the word eg Carbonero, Panadero

So guitarrero could mean to "do" something with guitars (make guitars or make music) eg Rumbero?

I know the modern words are guitarrista for player and guitarrero for maker, but can you be 100% sure that was always the case?

Check out this video from the past. Right at the beginning listen carefully to what the bailaora says.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2010 4:06:55

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

Check out this video from the past. Right at the beginning listen carefully to what the bailaora says.

Ron is vindicated, and the hasten grammarians scorned by their own contempt -

I actually like those grammarians.

Sharp find, Prom Critic, a true exegetic gem.

At 0:19 [dancer speaking to a Cabellero holding a guitar] “Guitarrero, tocame el Tango de etc etc…..”
And the “guitarrero” doesn’t glue a bridge nor does he shape a headstock… he starts playing music!!

Incidentally, I really enjoyed the video; it also answers the never-wearing question, what’s “flamenco”?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2010 4:37:15

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Sharp find, Prom Critic, a true exegetic gem.

Thanks – it really was beyond belief to find a clip like that, that is so dramatically conclusive on the matter. I certainly wasn't looking for it – you could spend the rest of your life looking for something like that and never find anything that spoke so exactly and directly to the dispute. I was actually browsing around YouTube, and I saw something about "Antonio and Rosario." There isn't that much available on Antonio, so I thought I would take a look. I almost fell off my chair when I heard her say "Hey Guitarrero." Equally amazing that I should stumble on to it only a day or two after that original exchange.

Yes, I agree about the video itself. The bailaora – Carmen Rojas - is just plain terrific, and of course Antonio was Antonio.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2010 21:01:01

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Charging for gigs (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

Does this mean that a Torero is a man who makes bulls?

Only if he works in a bull-eria

I bumped this topic back again as I have finally found an answer. According to the guitar makers in Granada "Guitarrero" is a South American argot for Guitarist so in movies produced for latin american market (such as this one) guitarists are referred to as guitarreros (presumably because of the Mexican influence)

However far away in European Spain the word guitarrreo refers to a guitar maker for the reason I stated above. Any old references to guitarists being called Guitarreros is of South American/Mexican and not Andalucian origin....so don't call yourself a guitarrero in Spain if you want people to know you are a guitarrista.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 23 2010 12:16:12