I wanna make a guitar!! or many...

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Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

I wanna make a guitar!! or many...

Hello,

Have been so busy recently, havent posted on here at all and havent had much reading time either. but have been thinking again about starting to build a guitar and wanted some advice from the luthiers on here.

whats the story with building guitars, where does one start??

anders and stephen how did you start out?? (or others)
how much did it cost to make your first ever guitar??
was it any good?
or is one expected to make a piece of crap the first time around??
whats the most basic setup one can use to make a guitar (tools, equipment etc)

I bet theres been lots of threads about this but wanna start a new one for a fresh topic and to reinvigorate my interest/activity in the forum.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Stu

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 23 2010 18:54:50

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

Well, Stu....I can't offer any practical advice, but it would seem a better idea than trying to make a baby (or many), since both Henrik (duende) and Gabriel Edgar, (both regular posters), have vanished completely from the Foro since they were sucessful in their attempts...

(I told them their guitar would eventually get used as a big fun potty...

)

Happy days!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 23 2010 19:45:36

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

quote:

but it would seem a better idea than trying to make a baby (or many), since both Henrik (duende) and Gabriel Edgar, (both regular posters), have vanished completely from the Foro since they were sucessful in their attempts...

Were they successful in their attempts at making guitars or making babies?

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 23 2010 21:06:49

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

Hey stu,

How would you like to get started? what would be your ideal build as there are a few ways to go about it. Depending on time money and space!

There are evening classes, There are day classes, there are intensive courses and there are guitar making schools! - These are all methods that I feel you will get the best results for money spent! If you dont have tools and cant source the materials easily.

Then theres the make your own workshop and go from there. This is not a cheap route of course. this is usually done by an already wood work enthusiast who has most of the set up. Even with this method visiting a guitar maker is ideal. Or just use a book! Alot of the books have a basic tool guide and plans to work from!

My first guitar was made in the workshop of Stephen Hill and Pablo Requena. and It was pretty good. Only until I understood what I wanted from a guitar could I build my ideal guitar!

A typical build now costs me between £250 - £500 depending on materials and tuners used.

With regard to the basic set up for tools and things I have posted a list or two stating most of the things I find most useful! Let me know if you cant find it and I will dig it out of my email archives

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 23 2010 21:19:30

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

Buy a copy of my film and book a course with Stephen Hill in La Herradura would be my advice.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 23 2010 21:29:58

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

quote:

Have been so busy recently, havent posted on here at all and havent had much reading time either.

Could be a slow business then!

I've made 20 guitars in 33 years, because I was just too busy to make more. However now I've retired I'm getting quicker.

I started by buying a book. If you're the sort of person who likes to proceed by trial and error, working things out for yourself, learning from experience then this is the way.

But you could shell out some dosh and go to a course in Spain, receive the wisdom of an established maker and you would almost be guaranteed to get a good guitar first time.

Whichever route you choose you'll be hooked once you start

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Kevin Richards

http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2010 8:47:39

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

since both Henrik (duende) and Gabriel Edgar, (both regular posters), have vanished completely

yeah i was thinking that the other day!!!

definately not making any babies anytime soon! are there eveneing classes taht teach that???

so i have looked and thought about stephens course a few times and would love to do that some day but itys obviously rather expensive for a struggling actor, but one big job could pay for it i suppose?!?

quote:

How would you like to get started? what would be your ideal build as there are a few ways to go about it. Depending on time money and space!

well I really don't know to be honest.
I love the idea of having my own workshop eventually.
My dad is a carpenter and I grew up in and around his workshop helping out etc and really love that idea but may be a while a way.

I do really like the idea of spending a month with stephen and making a guitar there but also the idea of evening classes may be a more affordable option...got any info on that or links??

quote:

I started by buying a book

which one?? i see courtnall mentioned alot

cheers
Stu

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2010 11:53:30

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

A really good book to start with would be "Classic Guitar Construction" by Irving Sloane. Clear, comprehensive step by step instruction, with plenty of photos, and a detailed list of all tools, materials, equipment, and anything else required. Along with that you could get another book of his "Guitar Repair," which makes a nice complement to the first.

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2010 15:23:31

estebanana

Posts: 9358
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

Not to be a bother, but Sloane's book has lot's of problems. At the time it was written it was one of the few sources, but now the online guitar makers' forums and Courtnall's and Bogdanivich's book would be more helpful. That is if you can't get to some classes right away.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2010 19:22:01

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

quote:

Not to be a bother, but Sloane's book has lot's of problems.

Well, what can I say – I'm just a dinosaur.

Ramon AKA Tyrannosaurus Rex

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2010 20:42:41

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

quote:

which one?? i see courtnall mentioned alot

I started with Sloane's book but that was way back in in the late seventies.
Courtnall is good and Bogdanovitch makes more use of modern power tools.

But none of them tell you how to make a flamenco guitar.
Thats where this forum is so useful and Simon's video "El Guitarrero - the making of a flamenco guitar" will inspire you too.

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Kevin Richards

http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2010 7:19:54

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

I was speaking with someone the other who thought it would be a great Idea to make a guitar! I think the best option We came up with was to find a guitar maker near by and ask if he would be willing to teach you how. If he doesnt already Teach of course. and go from there to find the best option that fits your income and work time.

If you have access to your dads workshop then a book could also be a great option! I like courtnalls book. but then again I havent seen the others and didnt learn from a book either! I just like the looking at the pictures!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2010 15:59:19

estebanana

Posts: 9358
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

I think the best option We came up with was to find a guitar maker near by and ask if he would be willing to teach you how

I agree, make friends with the best guitar makers in your area ask to arrange for private lessons. That's kind of what I did right after I got out of grad school for sculpture. The ones that taught me never ask for money, I was very lucky and very poor at the time. But I did give them gifts like books and small tools and helped them with things they needed.

I would still like to take some classes with some of the makers building in Spain, perhaps someday. You can never know everything.

Courtnall's book also has a Santos plan which if made as a blanca is flamenco enough.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2010 19:39:51

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

I faced this a while ago.
I have been building steel string guitars for a while and wanted to build a flamenco.
None of the books mentioned (sloan, courtnall, Bogdanovich) really covered flamenco building.
Courtnall is probably the best IMO
Sloan is outdated and uses some techniques like boiling the sides which no one really does now
Bogdanovich uses laminated sides and linings and a complicated solera geometry. He is also unfortunately a disciple of the Siminoff tap tuning. But it is an inexpensive book and worth reading

None of these really explain neck angle setup and how it interacts with top doming, fretboard thickness, string height and bridge saddle height. There is more of a cookbook aproach to this.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2010 20:30:24

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

None of these really explain neck angle setup and how it interacts with top doming, fretboard thickness, string height and bridge saddle height. There is more of a cookbook aproach to this.

Nobody ever explained this stuff to me Jeff. It strikes me that after you build a couple of flat top guitars and see how they go together that the application of a little common sense, some examination of good Spanish guitars and a drafting board is all one needs to get a good grasp of these processes. Besides how in the world would you write this data down. It's easy once you understand it but really complicated to explain.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2010 22:19:48

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

I agree John, the understanding of this geometry is essential to any luthier.
But for a beginner,trying to learn only from these books will not get you there, its' sort of do this do that and put up with whatever string height you end up at the bridge with.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2010 23:12:13

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

Thanks for all these replies folks!

some interesting chat here!

im gonna see about perhaps getting in touch with local guitar makers...if there are any close (never really thought of that)

Ideally I would like to do stephen hills course , but need cash!!

Also found out that some of the adult colleges in london run guitar makers classes, so may look into that as an intro.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2010 23:38:48

Flamingrae

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

Lots of good advice for you. I would agree with quite a lot thats been said.

IMHO, The Courtnall book is a good choice although I ended up buying quite a few.

I made my first guitar (Santo Copy) using birch plywood for the back and sides, mahogany from a frame and other scrap wood. For a first - I love it but have more ideas about what I want now. I did buy a reasonable sound board from touchstone tonewoods in Reigate.
A guitar maker called Pete True used to run guitar soundboard building courses lasting a day or w/e. That would give you a good start and you could probably pick his brains a bit too. He has a website but think he may have moved Rochester way?? you'd have to look him up and check where he is.

The film "El Guitarrero" is worth a look too - a nice concise story of a build. I've watched it a few times now, fab.

The other thing is do your research - but then dive in and get cracking.

Hope this helps and good luck, Rae

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2010 17:18:57

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Flamingrae)

quote:

touchstone tonewoods in Reigate.

Hey, thats where I grew up!! Reigate.... not touchstone tonewoods!!

you from those ways??

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2010 17:29:43

Flamingrae

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

No, I'm based in SE London. Touchstone are about the nearest supplier to me and they are nice and friendly too. They maybe are not the cheapest for wood but they have most things you'll need. They also do a good delivery service if you know what you want, but it's good to go down especially if you are selecting wood.
Oh another thought - the Romanillos vids on youtube are worth a look too.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2010 17:41:14

Dave K

Posts: 155
Joined: Mar. 29 2006

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Flamingrae)

I'm surprised no one mentioned Cumpiano and Natelson's "Guitarmaking - Tradition and Technology" (Or, may be I missed it?). It is a very comprehensive book with lots of photos, and leaves very few questions about how to construct both nylon and steel string guitars. I believe this to be the most thorough book on guitar construction available.
There's also the "MIMF", a forum on musical instrument making that can answer any questions a new maker may have. You can Google it, it can be free but of course they can use all the help they can get, and last I checked, they accepted payed subscriptions.
http://www.mimf.com/index.htm

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 3:37:28

Flamingrae

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Dave K)

Well mentioned Dave. I think I said I'd ended up buying a few books and the Cumpiano was another of them. I confess that I robbed tips from all the books and used the methods that I could for the set up I have. I'll check out this forum as I dont know about that one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 10:18:57

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

quote:

is one expected to make a piece of crap the first time around??

I think the first guitar is a good indication of the following guitars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2010 9:27:02

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

quote:

I think the first guitar is a good indication of the following guitars.

I don't think so.

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2010 12:39:57

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Was your first build crap, then improved to very good? or the other way round?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2010 13:46:11

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

quote:

Was your first build crap, then improved to very good? or the other way round?

Who – me? A luthier? I'm pretty sure when I was a kid I wound some rubber bands around a cigar box, but that's about the extent of my career as a guitarrero. I was a cigarrero.

Unless a person is hopelessly and utterly without talent or normal ability, I think he generally improves with time and experience. This is assuming he or she has some real aficion for the particular art.

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2010 3:53:29

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

quote:

I think the first guitar is a good indication of the following guitars.

I agree that if one is hopeless at this kind of thing then the first build would be a "bad" 1st attempt and you may be able to say "sorry theres no hope for you" etc..
and if someone was a good beginner and made a really good crack at it you could say ok youve got potential" etc

but im confused by your next remark...

quote:

Was your first build crap, then improved to very good? or the other way round?

what do you mean??
surely even a really **** first build would get better with guidance and time..isnt that how we humans work??

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2010 22:26:44

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: I wanna make a guitar!! or many... (in reply to Stu)

quote:

what do you mean??
surely even a really **** first build would get better with guidance and time..isnt that how we humans work??

You definitely get better but I doubt it can improve from crap to very good as a hand built guitar should be. At best it will improve to mediocre IMO.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2010 22:46:52