alternatives to cypress

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jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

alternatives to cypress

Ok, here's a much more interesting question in my estimation. What are the really good alternatives to Cypress for blancas?

Here's my list off the top of my node:

Damar Minyak (Indonesian Kaurie)
Sycamore
Poplar
Port Orford Cedar
Alaska Yellow Cedar (marginal)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2010 16:39:10

CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to jshelton5040)

What about Lutz Spruce like this guitar?
http://cgi.ebay.ca/2010-CONDE-HERMANOS-A26-HOMAGE-FLAMENCO-by-SIGURDSON_W0QQitemZ270572687618QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar?hash=item3eff639102

quote:

*Lutz Spruce back & sides *
( Lutz Spruce is both stiffer & lighter in weight than traditional cypress )

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2010 16:50:25

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to jshelton5040)

Are we talking "looks" or "tone"?

I certainly can't talk "tone".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2010 17:13:23

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 10 2009

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2010 17:42:55

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to CuerdasDulces)

quote:

What about Lutz Spruce like this guitar?
http://cgi.ebay.ca/2010-CONDE-HERMANOS-A26-HOMAGE-FLAMENCO-by-SIGURDSON_W0QQitemZ270572687618QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar?hash=item3eff639102

Lutz spruce is a wood for tops not backs & sides. It is a hybridized spruce from the Pacific Northwest, it's Sitka mixed with other Spruces, like Engleman for example. You can get it from this guy named Shane Niefer. I bought some for making an archtop. It's not necessarily stiffer than cypress.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2010 19:46:27

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 10 2009

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2010 19:57:19

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to jshelton5040)

I prefer the compressed and dried elephant sh*t mâché for my guitars.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2010 20:51:14

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan

I prefer the compressed and dried elephant sh*t mâché for my guitars.

Then there's always the temptation to smoke it. That's gooood ****.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2010 21:37:40

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to Exitao)

Wow this thread degenerated fast even without me being an ass.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2010 21:38:57

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to Exitao)

you smoke elephant sh*t? good call. that helps you save money on car insurance right?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2010 21:41:20

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to jshelton5040)

LOL

It all started when our pet elephant ate a brick of black hash. We waited a week for that to come back out and by then we were very desperate.

estebanana:
I have to be better than you at something.

HemeolaMan:
Car insurance? No worries about driving. Makes you blind for a good 6 hours.

As far as the legitimate topic of the thread goes, I've sort mentioned this elsewhere tangentially, and HH kind of hints at this by referring to the blanca v negra issue, but if the tonal qualities of the B&S aren't really that big an issue, maybe we need to consider other aesthetic aspects such as looks and smell.

When I smell my blanca, I'm nearly as fulfilled as if I could play it reasonably well....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2010 21:50:14

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

Original: MSA
Jeff Sigurdson uses it on some blancas

Jeff also uses maple* in his student guitars. I believe Cathulu's was made with Alaskan Cypress, which is only similar to Spanish/Mediterranean in colour (AFAIK, do correct me if I'm wrong).

* local maple I assume, as there's an abundance of it in Canada and makes little sense to import it from, say, Japan.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2010 21:57:27

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2010 4:29:58

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to M.S.A.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: M.S.A.

can I have a question? - are all blancas of yours speaking this same voice and tone? or is there some small amount of sinus kind of variability in final sounds of different pieces?

If I were a marketing type I'd lie to you and say that all our guitars are identical. The guitar you're referring to was one of a batch of three cedar top blancas. Two of them were built with wood from the same billet and sounded almost identical which is not surprising since the wood for both was milled at the same time. I would have had a hard time picking the better of those two, one of which was the one you heard. The third guitar was built with cedar from another billet and had a slightly darker sound to my ear (good for seguiriyas). I found the third guitar very pleasing although not as brilliant as the others. I'd like to hear the three of them now and see how they have developed.

Thank you for the compliment!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2010 6:19:31

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2010 7:18:19

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to M.S.A.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: M.S.A.

interesting, cause I was wondering if it was spruce because of it's not typical spruce looks, now you confirm it's a cedar top! that perhaps explains that warmth in the tone of trebles. but how did you achieve that low sustain? is there any trick how to make cedar sound like spruce??

I've been trying to make spruce sound more like cedar

. Cedar guitars tend to be very underrated for some reason (just my opinion you understand).

quote:

shall I ask that guy to make a new one if he is so kind?

Sure, why not? If you can find him. He was doing post graduate studies in Japan when he made this video. He's a really nice person. His first name is Mazen, I'm sure he wouldn't mind me mentioning that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2010 9:52:53

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to jshelton5040)

So... this was partly addressed in the Negra thread, but poorly.

Why roles do the sides an back play in sound production? Some people have contended that it plays very little and that it's merely structure.

But John, you suggest that different materials have their own sounds.

Can someone please give a few straight responses about how tonewoods affect the sound in sides and back and what about them makes the difference?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2010 11:45:36

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2010 13:27:56

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to Exitao)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Exitao

Why roles do the sides an back play in sound production? Some people have contended that it plays very little and that it's merely structure.

But John, you suggest that different materials have their own sounds.

Red Cedar is different from Euro spruce. It needs to be milled to thicker dimensions than spruce and requires a different approach to top tuning (my opinion). As to back and sides...I think it is really nice if the wood they're made of is stiff and resonant but their importance relative to the top wood..maybe 5 or 6 %. Effect on the sound of the guitar...minimal.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2010 15:34:03

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to jshelton5040)

So it is a third order effect!

That add regarding the Sigurdson is somewhat offensive to me. Jeff is a great guy to work with, I don't know how much he is involved with this. The guy probably bought the guitar from Jeff for $1200 and is trying to flip it. Jeff is aware of guys like that, but he just likes to build guitars and he doesn't get into all the marketing blather.

Yah, Exitao, I can't remember what my sides are but you may be right or not. Jeff said he was going to make me a nice blanca, so I need to get the right Cypress wood as I wanted to french polish the top and achieve a bit higher build quality, which I think he said would come from Spain. But I can't remember it all and it is a bit fuzzy. I went back again to talk to him before the guitar was built and settle on the rosette etc and we talked wood again etc. But you are probably right...

M.S.A. it is funny how you rationalize and select guitars. Nothing wrong with that, lots of people are the same, but I would not be making a choice based on a video of a Yemeni guy - but no doubt Mr. Shelton's experience also plays a strong role. Shows you how visceral guitars can be, as there ain't much else there but a fancy wood box, we have to find all of this very imprecise language to describe why we like one guitar over another. It is funny, for me the guitar is just a tool for enjoyment.

And the proof of that is how everyone fawns over and is amazed by the sound of a guitar built by someone for the first or second time...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2010 16:18:16

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to jshelton5040)

Apple wood
Pear wood
Perhaps Doug Fir on a case by case basis
Some Cherry
Ash
Mahogany
Elm ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2010 23:35:19

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Apple wood
Pear wood
Perhaps Doug Fir on a case by case basis
Some Cherry
Ash
Mahogany
Elm ?

African Limba
Alder (select pieces)
Kavula

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2010 8:01:17

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Apple wood
Pear wood
Perhaps Doug Fir on a case by case basis
Some Cherry
Ash
Mahogany
Elm ?

African Limba
Alder (select pieces)
Kavula

Almost forgot chinkapin

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2010 8:03:43

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to jshelton5040)

everyone forgot Oak.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2010 8:46:25

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to jshelton5040)

Cherry can be a little "rubbery" sometimes, but I think it would make a fantastic flamenco guitar. Also people should get acquainted with three and four piece backs because premium wide flitches of wood will be more scarce in the future. The only real reason not to use pieced together backs is that it is more work for the guitar maker.

I've been rereading Romanillos' book on Torres and he surmises that a person who's worked as a carpenter has an edge over some one who just starts guitar building without having made many things with wood as he says: ( paraphrased) "...the carpenter will have handled more wood in a few years that a guitar maker who's never been a carpenter will handle in their whole life".

Romanillos states he built his first guitar in 1961, but did not become a professional full time builder until 1970. I was pleased to read this and found a new respect for our man Jose' because it indicates he is not one of those Italian or Spanish guys who's mother washed his socks and cleaned his room until he was 53 years old. He seems to have worked with the men. I wholeheartedly agree about the contact with wood,there is something to it. Even rough cutting and parting wood fibers from non guitar making species or knowing how to crown framing lumber or parse through flooring boards to cull which will twist etc, all has merit towards gaining understanding for guitar building.

I'm also tickled he would say that because when I first began to build guitars I went to visit a well known Bay Area guitar maker and offered to pay him his 80.00 per hour consultation fee to get some lessons and feedback. After being turned away for some weeks in a row because he had a stick up his ass, I finally met a person who made better Spanish guitars and he took me as a student exactly because I had been a carpenter and knew what he was talking about when he said the term "mill ends". The first guitarerro I approached must have realized I knew something about woodworking and said in an offhanded put down, "Well guitar making is not cabinet making."

Yeah, got that right Bozo. High end cabinet making and installing is much more difficult than making a guitar.

Anyway guasa aside, The person I studied with put forth the idea that Torres' taller was situated near the carpenters shops. In Romanillos' book he documents this with city records. Jose R. then goes in to say that Torres most likely purchased some of his back & sides pieces from the carpenters; what are called mill ends, possibly the edges of large boards that were resawn to make huge tables.

I say any suitable wood should be tried as a flamenco guitar as long as it's tastefully selected and put together with structural integrity. I'm sure it will not look like a lowly cabinet.

( and here I thought I was going be good this week and not cast guasa on others)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2010 8:49:29

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan

everyone forgot Oak.

No, I'd say oak is too heavy to sub for cypress (same for ash although not as heavy as oak).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2010 9:44:27

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

and here I thought I was going be good this week and not cast guasa on others

But that's what we WANT!

Your posts are always great, estebanana, because you are speaking the truth as you have come to find it after long experience.

I like that and is what always makes your posts so interesting, jokey or not.

(Mind you...you're probably still a lunatic too...

)

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2010 12:11:08

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to estebanana)

Hey, maybe I should get into guitar making also! I am half-way there as I have worked with wood a fair bit, made decks of cedar (I used wood recycled from old power poles for the railing), built a house addition, finished basements, installed wood cabinetry, built a flamenco dance floor for practice, etc.

I am thinking about making an expedition windsurfer out of wood now... nah, I think I will just rent something.

Maybe I am all wet for some of you guys cause I don't drink the koolaid or swear by the "lore" but I *know* the smell of wood, the feel of it, the weight, the splinter in the hand, how to handle a good piece of Douglas Fir, Spruce, Oak, Hemlock etc and I think I understand what Estebanana is saying. The only thing I don't do is drink coffee, I am a tea man.

Edit plus I built lots of stuff out of balsa wood!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2010 15:38:52

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I've been rereading Romanillos' book on Torres and he surmises that a person who's worked as a carpenter has an edge over some one who just starts guitar building without having made many things with wood

I'd definitely agree with that, if nothing else it teaches you efficient working habits, how to measure, how to mark and cut things, use tools, make joints etc, etc.

I prefer building guitars to building houses... guitars don't have electricity and plumbing

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2010 16:07:26

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to jshelton5040)

Well guitars are not easy to build either and I'm tired after a day of guitar making. Building houses? After a day of doing finish carpentry of hanging cabinets I'm exhausted. I want drink a beer, sit down watch dumb TV and go to bed early because the next day will be Tuesday and I'm already beat my Monday night. By Friday my tendons want to jump out of my arms. Glad I don't do that anymore.

I hear it when guys say making a guitar is a gut raking experience that kills them every time, but they should go work for a building contractor and see what tired really feels like.

After a day I guitar making, I'm tired, but I'm ready to shower and go see flamenco show and drink 20 beers. It's really a different kind if tired.

You kids never had it so good. When I was young we walked forty miles through snow to work with our tool bags and saws. And saws were bigger then! And bosses were meaner!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2010 20:09:54