alzupau

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alzupau

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rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

alzupau

where does the golpe come in, in alzupau? Is it on the initial downstroke with the accent note and then the cord? Obviously it is not on the upstroke, but is it on the accent note or do you golpe on the chord? it couldnt be a seperate stroke as there would not be time. the writeup on affedis does not explain and I have heard that golpe is an essential part of alupau. tia.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2004 21:15:28

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: alzupau (in reply to rickm)

quote:

where does the golpe come in, in alzupau?

This is an interesting question because it throws up a few things that might be a bit debatable.

Convention has it that Alzapua consists of two strokes, down and up.

I always think of it as three and in the past, I have been told that I am wrong. Nonetheless, I still maintain it's three.

Stroke 1: Thumb down apoyando, hesitates with the resistance of the next string and then Stroke 2: breakes free to arc out over the next few strings followed by, Stroke 3: strikes back up to repeat the pattern.

Within this analysis, Alzapua strikes with stroke 2.

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2004 22:29:49

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: alzupau (in reply to rickm)

Yes, that's correct, golpe on second stroke.

I think what is confusing for some people, is that
many times, the cycle starts on that 2 stroke.

Or maybe i'm just confused as well.

Ya ever play alzapua riffs with a little rest before the 2 stroke?

Sounds like bluegrass!

Jonny A

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2004 22:44:02

rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

RE: alzupau (in reply to rickm)

ok, sounds right, then it must be wrist rotation thing that enters in after the accent note, and not simply a brush down, if I get this right, I can do it pretty effectively without the golpe and someone pointed out I need one. so, it must be that 2nd movement of the thumb with a slight rotation but boy is that going to slow me down until I master it.!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2004 2:47:15

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: alzupau (in reply to rickm)

Umm.. hang on a sec, the question was partly whether the golpe was essential in alazpua.

I agree that that it comes on the 2nd downstroke, but I wouldn't say its essential.
Now I'll go and check some of my videos later to verify this, but I'm pretty sure Paco, Tomatito to name a couple don't play a golpe at all at times eg when they do fast Alzapua triplets. The wrist is moving so quickly its like a tremor - not much time to get golpes in there.

What do you think Jim? Golpe only on slow alzapua?

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2004 14:13:48

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: alzupau (in reply to Jon Boyes)

It doesn't matter how fast it is, they can get the golpes in if they want.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2004 14:16:49

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: alzupau (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

It doesn't matter how fast it is, they can get the golpes in if they want.

and a smoke and a drink

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2004 14:19:37

rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

RE: alzupau (in reply to rickm)

ok guys are you sure the golpe is not played on the initial accent note? it makes a lot more sense and is workable, but if you try it on the chord form (2nd strike) is becomes impossible. commeents plse

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2004 18:26:37

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: alzupau (in reply to rickm)

Ok, lets start again.

In a sequence, Alzapua usually starts on the 'middle' part of the stroke ie where P plays a downstroke chord (this isn't usually the second stroke as was said earlier)

..then you have the P upstroke on the chord

..then finally you have apoyando on the bass string

That's the usual order for the sequence to start in, and the golpe, if you do one, is always on that first strike. If you are starting with the apoyando, I can see why it makes sense to accent there, but that isn't how its normally played.

Its incorrect to say that that the golpe is 'essential' ie always played as part of the three note sequence - it simply isn't. I just went and checked material by Juan Martin, Paco pena, PDL, tomatito and Graf Martinez and I couldn't find a single example where the golpe was played on every single 'middle' stroke.

Indeed, even if it was humanly possible at the speeds PDL & co play triplets as Mike believes, it would sound like a woodpecker on the guitar top and I've never heard that by anyone.

No, what all these players do is put an occasional golpe in the sequence where they want to emphasise the odd chord in a sequence (Eg Tomatito Tangos falseta 1 from his video) or superimpose a counter rhythm on top of the golpe pattern by picking out certain chords (eg PDL in his Solea on the Light & Shade vid.)

two quotes of relevance:

"First, the thumb plays a downstroke chord across the strings, starting from a well-defined note as the lowest note of the chord that is sounded. This note belongs to the melody and is the most important part of the chord, whose exact extent onto higher strings is therefore not crucial. A golpe is often played to coincide with the thumbstroke." (Juan Martin)

"P begins with a donstroke on the middle string of the group of three strings..to emphasise this downstroke you can execute an addional golpe with a." (Graf Martinez)

(emphasis mine)

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2004 19:25:28

rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

RE: alzupau (in reply to rickm)

wow, now I get it , thanks for the wonderful explanation and the research. that makes perfect sense now. thanks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2004 20:04:53

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: alzupau (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Jon,
I agree with you here.
The only thing I would add is to say that the first stroke in alzapua is an "a" stroke.... (as in a one a two a three)" ie the second thru stroke is the main stroke which can be accompanied by a golpe or not, depending on which accents you want to bring out. This is easily done by raising or lowering the height of the third finger with respect to the tap plate.
It's certainly not compulsory to play a golpe after each one.
That would be naff!

For example , in Fandangos de Huelva it sounds good when you play every third beat with a golpe...all the rest straight alzapua.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2004 20:40:58

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: alzupau (in reply to rickm)

I don't know if the introductory materials Juan Martin and Mr. Martinez present have anything to do with the limits of Paco de Lucia, in fact I rather doubt it....

Besides, what does speed have to do with it? No matter how fast you play with the thumb, the ring finger is never connected to it. I can tap sextuplets on the golpeador with the ring finger at 100 bpm and I have to assume Tomatito can at least do anything I can do.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2004 20:44:16

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: alzupau (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

Besides, what does speed have to do with it? No matter how fast you play with the thumb, the ring finger is never connected to it.

Untrue!
Obviously you don't understand alzapua technique fully yet Mike....

The ring finger is always in play during alzapua, the deciding factor as to whether it becomes a golpe or not is really based on finger height and the desire to make a golpe or not.

When you are playing alzapua, you can feel that third finger pulsing away, whether it is resting on the guitar top, or raised to make a golpe.

Obviously my own opinion only...

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2004 21:01:57

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: alzupau (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron, I know how to play alzapua... what I mean is, there isn't thing that prevents one from playing a golpe at any time you play a downstroke. In fact, to me it feels better to do so.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2004 21:10:56

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: alzupau (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Well Mike, as long as you know how to do alzapua then there's no problem....

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2004 21:30:35

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: alzupau (in reply to rickm)

Miguel, i detect a chip on your shoulder.
Not to mention a hint of impatience.
Be relaxed grasshopper.
Remember, this is music, not the olympic trials.

Jonny A

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2004 1:53:20

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: alzupau (in reply to rickm)

Okay, thanks for the kind words fellas.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2004 6:22:13

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: alzupau (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
what I mean is, there isn't thing that prevents one from playing a golpe at any time you play a downstroke. In fact, to me it feels better to do so.

Well you know what I'm going to say next...

What about an upload to show us Mike? I'd be particularly impressed if you can tap those sextuplets at 100bpm with A whilst you are playing an alzapua sequence. Doing the A golpe by itself at that speed means nothing.

I have to disagree with you. At slow speeds, fair enough, but in those fast triplets we are discussing I think it would be extremely awkward to bring a golpe into play with any regularity.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2004 7:35:30

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: alzupau (in reply to Jon Boyes)

quote:

What about an upload to show us Mike? I'd be particularly impressed if you can tap those sextuplets at 100bpm with A whilst you are playing an alzapua sequence.

Yeah...and chanting at the same time. Now that would be cool!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2004 8:27:08

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: alzupau (in reply to rickm)

Yes, now thats a great idea.

I only have a couple of alzapua things i can do, so it would
be great to hear some other stuff demonstrated in an upload.

Being able to hear is slow and fast really makes the difference
in trying to learn.

Cheers Miguel,

Jonny A

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2004 12:53:53

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: alzupau (in reply to rickm)

I thought we were talking about alzapua, now we're talking about whether the loudmouth Miguel de Maria can play as fast as Paco... I guess I can't have an opinion without uploading proof of it? I think I'll sit out this one and let you guys hash this one out yourselves.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2004 14:21:43

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: alzupau (in reply to rickm)

Interesting, i didnt see it that way at all.
Perhaps a case of typical internet miscommunication, because
the inflections of spoken conversation are not there.

I certainly didnt mean to imply you arent as fast as Paco.
I dont think that was Jon's intent either.

You claimed to have a hold on this technique, w/ the golpe we're talking
about.
We simply wanted to hear it executed. I dont see where you got anything
else out of that.

I can upload the alzapua i know, but i dont do it with golpe so well. :)

Relax Miguel, you're among amigos....
I honestly thought this would be a great chance for you to show us what you
can really do! You know? :) I bet you are really good!
Cheers,
Jonny A

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2004 14:37:42

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: alzupau (in reply to ToddK)

To All,

I've read through the thread and I felt, yes! there was a wee poke at MdM, so lets cool down a bit and if anyone cares to upload an audio that would be great.

PS. I didn't say golpe happens on every 2nd stroke and I did try to make it clear that most folk don't agree with my 3 stroke thing.

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2004 18:01:44