advices on Finishes, por favor!

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rodpacheco

Posts: 80
Joined: Apr. 19 2010
From: Mexico

advices on Finishes, por favor!

Hello Everybody,

I am a new member of foroflamenco, and seeing the vast display of craftsmanship, I'd like to ask for your advice on finishes, I am currently building 4 flamencas:

- Rosewood / Englemann Spruce
- Bird's Eye Maple / Sitka
- Palo Escrito / Sitka
- Purple Heart/ Sitka

the Rosewood and the maple, both want a satin finish... for what I succeeded before using Polyurethane... It was thin, not plastic looking, but silky in appearance. As for sound, it was there, probably not as open as with French Polish I assume but nevertheless, good sound. All I did was to "polish" to a medium steel wool grit.

Now, I am considering using the HYBRID FINISH, French Polish for the Soundboard, and ????????? for the body. Having a Satin finish in mind.

I specifically would like to give a very light wash coat of orange SHELLAC to the maple, to bring out the beauty of the grain/figure. and Perhaps the Palo Escrito.

- Would Nitro Laquer or Polyurethane ADHERE to the washcoat of Shellac??

- I do not want to use satin laquer, for I think it clouds the finish a bit much. Would Gloss Nitro Laquer be a good option, "polishing" it to a Satin finish??

as for the Palo Escrito, and the Purple Heart, I'm thinking Nitro Gloss.

I Appreciate your willingness to share knowledge and experience. I thank you in advance! Daleeeee!

Rodrigo Pacheco
Constructor

Delirio Guitars

[image][/image]

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2010 12:21:20

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to rodpacheco)

Rodrigo

More or less everything sticks to shellack. Thats why its used a lot as a barrier coat. It even seals silicone.
You can use nitro over shellack no problem and shellack over nitro as well. You can also polish nitro and shellack the way you like if you want a silky finish. Steel wool, micro mesh etc.

polyester and polyurethane also works with shellack, but I dont like these finishes.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2010 13:02:52

rodpacheco

Posts: 80
Joined: Apr. 19 2010
From: Mexico

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to rodpacheco)

Anders,

Thank you so much for the advice, it solves the issue. I actually suscribed to this forum while google-ing advices for the use of pegs, and found the thread leading here. Hahaha it's awesome to have your response.

It´s unbelievably amazing how many people connect through this and other means, such as concerts, travels, etc. all linked by music, guitars and flamenco.

So, I followed the advice you gave the other fellow, and started looking on-line for a viola reamer and shaver, and rosewood pegs from dov-schmidt music. I'd appreciate it, if you could further expand on instructions for it. Cheers a bunch!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2010 15:02:58

rodpacheco

Posts: 80
Joined: Apr. 19 2010

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 23 2010 11:25:19
Reason for deletion: Repeat post

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2010 8:26:31

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to rodpacheco)

what kind of instructions are you looking for?

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2010 23:38:31

rodpacheco

Posts: 80
Joined: Apr. 19 2010
From: Mexico

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

How are you? Well, pretty much everything that I need to be aware of... I will get the reamer and shaver... and pegs this monday. I am doing the neck/heel joint and headplate veneers today or so... Though I believe I can drill the pegholes later on next week, even before finishing.

I have never even touched a peg! haha so questions I have are:

1. Do I have to drill the hole at an angle? or just perpendicular to the headstock?

2. Spacing... I have seen a few head-stocks with both the D and the G strings "pulled" in towards the center, for clearance of course... I kind of would imagine it looks better if the are IN LINE, of course stringing it accordingly. COULD YOU LET ME KNOW HOW TO POSITION THE PEGHOLES? Are they parallel as in a rectangle, or can the follow the "V"shape or the headstock?? how far apart? etc.

Thanks so much again Anders, excellent!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2010 11:23:18

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to rodpacheco)

You could always buy my film of Anders - lots of drilling and reaming for pegs in there along with his running commentary

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2010 11:28:12

rodpacheco

Posts: 80
Joined: Apr. 19 2010
From: Mexico

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to Escribano)

Hahaha Man, I have watched the preview for it, and most definitely will want and are looking to buy, asking relatives in France to order it for me. Or using PayPal and getting it in Mexico City. The thing is, I will not have money until next month when I finish and deliver THESE guitars! hahah So the advice, I would need it for now! a freebie, si'l vous plait!!

But, then again, you can always buy one of my guitars, so I can buy the El Guitarrero Documentary!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2010 12:15:39

rodpacheco

Posts: 80
Joined: Apr. 19 2010
From: Mexico

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to Escribano)

P.s. I promise I will get it as soon as I can! awesome preview Escribano!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2010 12:32:45

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to rodpacheco)

quote:

Or using PayPal and getting it in Mexico City

Sin problema. I have shipped a few to D.F. but you know the mail there

quote:

But, then again, you can always buy one of my guitars, so I can buy the El Guitarrero Documentary!!

No mames, I already bought the one in the film

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2010 15:11:08

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

You can use nitro over shellack no problem and shellack over nitro as well. You can also polish nitro and shellack the way you like if you want a silky finish. Steel wool, micro mesh etc.

polyester and polyurethane also works with shellack

I love these luthiers’ threads. It is a bit like watching a foreign film. Only the camera angle, like the geometry of stars in the celestial map, provides some fragile orientation over the immense ocean of linguistic obscurity.

The images they conjure are exciting, but I am most likely missing the point…

When in doubt, Shellac, no exceptions.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2010 15:15:31

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

I love these luthiers’ threads. It is a bit like watching a foreign film. Only the camera angle, like the geometry of stars in the celestial map, provides some fragile orientation over the immense ocean of linguistic obscurity.

The images they conjure are exciting, but I am most likely missing the point…

When in doubt, Shellac, no exceptions.

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Me da igual. La música es música.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2010 15:52:13

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

Only the camera angle, like the geometry of stars in the celestial map, provides some fragile orientation over the immense ocean of linguistic obscurity.

That would be my camera then?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2010 16:46:15

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

That would be my camera then?

You are the cinematographer, Escribano, and quite a "foreign" one...

Don’t you find that when watching a foreign movie, without subtitles, the way the camera zooms and angles more or less obliquely provides the only “context” which may help understanding the meaning of a scene?
Sorry I deviated from the subject. These threads are so highly technical that I trust you appreciate and will forgive my metaphor.

[Estevan thank you for reading my silly post... ]

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2010 18:24:01

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to rodpacheco)

quote:

I love these luthiers’ threads. It is a bit like watching a foreign film. Only the camera angle, like the geometry of stars in the celestial map, provides some fragile orientation over the immense ocean of linguistic obscurity.

baahhh

. How do you think it is to read some of your longer posts when English is only your third language?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2010 2:13:32

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to rodpacheco)

Rod.

Basically, depending on your pegshaver, make sure the blade is sharp !!!!!!!! and make sure the shaver and the reamer have the same conical angle!!!!!

shave the pegs until they are 6,5 - 7mm thick at the finest point.

drill the 6 holes in the headstock 90 degree angle. I personally prefer to position them in a traditional way, so that the 1st and 6th string are tuned the opposite way.

Ream the holes slowly with a light touch on a nice day when noone is disturbing you!

Final shave the pegs so that they fit

Make holes in the peg.

put strings on, tune the guitar, play it, sell it, get money, buy El guitarrero by Escribano.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2010 2:18:19

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

baahhh . How do you think it is to read some of your longer posts when English is only your third language?

Blah Blah Blah... Don’t give me that Anders. You have a great command of the English language and technical vocabulary, you crazy polyglot!!
No third language hesitation in this clip:

"its used a lot as a barrier coat. It even seals silicone.
You can use nitro over shellack no problem and shellack over nitro as well. You can also polish nitro and shellack the way you like if you want a silky finish. Steel wool, micro mesh etc. polyester and polyurethane also works with shellack, but I dont like these finishes."

On topic, don't you generally use "shellac(k)" to polish/finish your instruments entirely? or do you in fact use some of the combinations you suggest in that advice I quoted?

After my Conde was finally restored to the falsely advertised “French Polish” (and out of the lacquer) I really became a stubborn believer in the properties of this finish. Sound resonates better; aesthetically -I am convinced- it emphasizes the texture of both the Spruce and the (falsely advertised Brazilian Rose) Caviuna –or CSA Rosewood-.

Viva Shellac !!

_____________________________

gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2010 6:05:01

rodpacheco

Posts: 80
Joined: Apr. 19 2010
From: Mexico

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thanks Anders! Cheers! Cachondo el tio GJ!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2010 10:16:13

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to rodpacheco)

GJ, my guitars are 100% French Polish. But it doesnt change the fact that you can use more or less whatever underneath or above shellac

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2010 10:43:16

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

my guitars are 100% French Polish

As they say in my line of work... "no further questions, your Honor".

_____________________________

gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2010 11:52:45

rodpacheco

Posts: 80
Joined: Apr. 19 2010
From: Mexico

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to gj Michelob)

Hello Sir GJ Michelob,

There's the option to have the top French Polished for its acoustic qualities, and added protection to the body, using nitrolaquer or else, as stated before.

This "HYBRID FINISH" is most often used for students or just someone who wishes that added protection and also, a very important feature... a more "FOCUSED" sound, leaving the top to vibrate with FP. A difference to the full OPEN sound of a full French Polished instrument.

In my case the added protection, low maintenance, "focused sound" was asked by the players - from what THINK would be delivering the best instrument both aesthetic and acoustically for their specific needs!

This of course, is super subjective to the liking, purpose, style of music, etc., etc. etc., etc. I will let you know how it went, if you like!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2010 12:42:02

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to rodpacheco)

quote:

Hello Sir GJ Michelob,

I did not make "sir" (not yet, at least, and ceratinly not as gj Michelob). a plain and more friendly gj will do just fine. But thank you for addressing me a bit pompously, I enjoyed it for a brief moment, I confess.

I understand your kind explanation. Absolutely. And would love to hear your feedback on how your guitar turns out to be, sound and look.

Suerte.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2010 13:31:26