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When is it your own?   You are logged in as Guest
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XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

When is it your own? 
Hi all
what is the general accepted rule or limit for compositions, to call it your own. When does it "start" to be your own?
For example, if you convert a tangos falseta to buleria, is the buleria your own composition then?

I would say yes. But the idea is not yours. I like to differentiate between (melodic) "ideas" that can be played in many palos and "compositions" that apply only in a strong context. There are many "compositions", but fewer "ideas". IMO.

We all know there is some borrowing going on, and i dont think thats bad at all. And im not saying this only because im the biggest stealer that i know of!
What are your thoughts on this?

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2010 11:14:23
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: When is it your own? (in reply to XXX) 
i think we also have to distinguish between a case where for instance you want to share something in a foro - and if you want to produce a CD and sell it !

i think in second case, one have to be more carefull and critical.

i mean, i don't know what happens if you use a paco falseta note for note and transform it to another palo or something like that.

i don't think that this would be 100% ok , and without worries.

i am not familliar with music laws though

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2010 11:52:45
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: When is it your own? (in reply to XXX) 
hm yes, i didnt think of legal and commercial issues. Just what would you accept as "original", as non-lawyer? Wheres the line?
Also what about compas breaks? In the end, if somebody creates a break and you copy it, it would be the same thing as copying a falseta imo.

I mean people play others stuff note for note and they dont mention the composer, just call it "solea" or something. Live and also on CD (less often maybe). And its accepted (countless PdL live-"quotes" i need not to mention).

Legally there is probably not much difference whether you play an alien composition live or put it on CD, or is it?
Its something two-faced in the flamenco world and i dont know what to think.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2010 12:54:58
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: When is it your own? (in reply to XXX) 
I think its like with the GEMA. You have to be under a certain number of notes that are exactly like the "original" from anybody else. If you reach the number,...its not yours. GJ wrote a nice summary about it in the composition challenge.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2010 13:04:43
 
Chiste de Gales

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 13 2009
 

RE: When is it your own? (in reply to XXX) 
I dont think you can copyright only a rhythm. I wouldnt worry about a break in compas.

If you change just a little bit of the music, its probably more accurate to call it your "arrangement" rather than "composition.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2010 13:07:08
 
bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: When is it your own? (in reply to Doitsujin) 
What the heck...

If you were the one you stole from and would be really evil - would you sue the composer then?

If your answer is yes then thew piece not yours

But if you don't sell it you can do about anything you like.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2010 13:07:55
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: When is it your own? (in reply to bursche) 
If this would be common practice (sueing that is) then Paco, Vicente and maybe Tomatito (although not many play his falsetas coz they are hard;) would have sued half of the flamenco world.

But really, my question was not if it should be allowed to steal compositions i hope my joke above with the stealing is not misunderstood. I didnt play others compositions without permission

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2010 13:32:34
 
Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005
 

RE: When is it your own? (in reply to XXX) 
http://www.moltengold.com/cgi-bin/eBzget6A.pl?shop=7721AffedisFl&trolley=376387&page=http://www.affedis.com/newtranscriptions.html

I think what you are asking can be best answered by the above link. Faucher takes a falsetta and shows how other artist have used a familiar falsetta but in there own way.

My belief is that it is your own when the music being played is of your own voice yet INSPIRED by someone else.

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Free Palestine
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2010 14:39:35
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: When is it your own? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

Just what would you accept as "original", as non-lawyer? Wheres the line?


i think you have to hear it first and decide from case to case. i don't think that you can create a fixed rule for this.

i think if i would recognize it as someone elses original "idea", immediately after a second you start playing, then i wouldn't call it your original work.

anyway, i think in flamenco, such things are a bit more "relaxed" then lets say pop music or other styles.
its more like a community and people share (also the ideas)

i think paco, tomatito, etc, don't really care if others play their stuff, copy it , etc.
amateurs care more than them imo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2010 14:44:59
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: When is it your own? (in reply to Doitsujin) 
quote:

GJ wrote a nice summary about it in the composition challenge.


Thank you for the acknowledgement, Doits. Here is the link
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=117455&mpage=7&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=

I like this quote from the Court's opinion:
"a musical composition is original if it is "the spontaneous, unsuggested result of the author's imagination," originality in the realm of popular music lies within a very narrow scope. Slight variations in the use of rhythm, or harmony -- of accent and tempo -- may achieve it. "

Specifically, I believe that Flamenco is inherently "variations" on traditional themes. Save for certain “cantabile” melodies, infringement and originality of Flamenco pieces are quite subtle matters for the learned ear to discern.
In fact, certain established traditional phrases are recurrent and expected in all compositions claiming a given Palo.

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2010 15:01:45
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: When is it your own? (in reply to XXX) 
Everyone quotes Paco. Paco used to quote Niño Ricardo and Sabicas. They quoted Ramón Montoya, Manolo de Huelva, Antonio Moreno (Ricardo)... It's always been that way.

Unless you're supposed to be a high-profile player with your own style, it's more than acceptable. But, even so, if a well-known and highly skilled guitarist were to use a Niño Ricardo falseta, for example, for a new recording, I think most people would probably interpret it as an act of modesty and respect: a nod rather than a quote. But in that case it would have to be just a falseta or two once in a while.

In any case, if you play with someone else's ideas for long enough, you'll gradually start doing them your own way.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2010 23:29:39
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: When is it your own? (in reply to NormanKliman) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: NormanKliman

Everyone quotes Paco. Paco used to quote Niño Ricardo and Sabicas. They quoted Ramón Montoya, Manolo de Huelva, Antonio Moreno (Ricardo)... It's always been that way.


Yeah, and paco even said that everybody was playing Nino Ricardos stuff back then didnt he? And today its the same with Paco, Vicente.

quote:

i think you have to hear it first and decide from case to case


yes you're right. Im going to make a demo, but probably not before next week.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2010 4:44:22
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: When is it your own? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

We all know there is some borrowing going on


There always has been. I don't know about the law but it's always that way in traditional music. That's what makes it traditional.

I see popular and modern falsetas being played all over the place, heard a Moraito falseta played in Jerez. If nobody noticed something I played is not mine, I don't say anything, and for all I care they can think it's mine

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2010 4:52:18
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