Effects of old microphones on historic flamenco guitar recordings

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

Effects of old microphones on histor...

I have a 1939 Zeiss Ikon 2 1/4" camera. It has a single coated Zeiss lens. The lens makes a very distinctive type of photograph which modern medium format cameras don't make and the images made with this lens have qualities that I don't see in regular digital photographs.

Began then I to think that when people say there is an "old timey" flamenco guitar sound we don't hear in guitars any longer or when someone says por ejemplo, "Sabicas' sound defines a certain era of guitar voice"......etc. that a great deal of what we perceive as old time sound is really due old microphones and recording techniques?

I heard a live Santos Hernandez last Saturday night that did not sound old timey despite it's having been made in 1920. It sounded clear and concise very different from the mufflings and muddlings of early recordings. Like my Ikon camera that leaves it's lens signature one the photos I occasionally make with it, did the mics of past years effect the voice of the guitar or is it solely the recording storage of and play back technology of bygone times that determined the sound of the guitar?

Please discuss.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2010 23:34:59

johnguitars

Posts: 72
Joined: Jul. 27 2007
From: Michigan,USA

RE: Effects of old microphones on hi... (in reply to estebanana)

I agree. What is interesting is that we can (in theory) now use software to digitally emulate old microphones. I am going to experiment with it soon and see what I get. I am trying to keep an open mind but I doubt that it can be done digitally because of the real life harmonics that are lost (ones we perceive but do not hear) in digital recording and reproduction (odd vs even harmonics etc...). I will have to search, but I think I have the software--I'll let you know but of course there are going to be the room and recording technique issues also.

_____________________________

Too much is not enough!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2010 7:32:15

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Effects of old microphones on hi... (in reply to johnguitars)

old microphones, valves, tape compression etc.. all add a musicality that really works for me.
I think it's probably less the microphones than the recording devices because even now high tech studios will also have some highly cherished old microphones and old valve compressors etc.. but the recording is digitial. For some instruments, guitar being one, recording onto tape is hard to beat. These days there are alogorhythms that attempt to emulate it, or people record to tape and then transfer that to digitial.
In the end the sound that the producer and then mastering engineer is going for is a major influence.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2010 9:13:49

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Effects of old microphones on hi... (in reply to estebanana)

An interesting thought. But for much of Sabicas' output, perhaps a more accurate analogy would be mid-1950s Rollei, Nikon or Leica lenses.

Can anyone tell us which mics and other gear were used for older flamenco recordings? Sabicas' recordings come in great variety of sound, some quite hi-fi, some not so much. Even the hi-fi ones usually have audible reverb and equalization, which probably alter the sound far more than the mics did.

In person, Sabicas' tone was richer and more resonant than Paco's unamplified sound. In 1965 I heard him in a 900 seat hall. It was the pseudo-Spanish auditorium of Jefferson High School in San Antonio, with a lot of plaster and ceramics. I was on the front row. Sabicas was so loud unamplified that you could hear the reverb from the back wall.

At least until the 1970s recording technology in Spain was far behind contemporary US, British and German gear. So Niño Ricardo's Hispavox recordings are much poorer quality than the ones Pepe Martinez made in Britain. Mario Escudero made recordings in the USA for ABC that were very high quality. Some were made with the Hauser guitar that he played for a while. Escudero avoided the high positions of the cejilla that Sabicas often employed. This gave Escudero a different sonority that came through quite clearly on the recordings.

I'd say the difference between your Zeiss and a 1950s Rollei was more like the difference between 78 rpm discs and LPs. On average, 1950s LPs were poorer than today's average CDs, but the best of the old LPs were better than many of today's CDs. That includes the mics and the rest of the recording chain. A 1950s Neumann in good hands was more faithful than some of the mics used today to record flamenco discs.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2010 9:14:31

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Effects of old microphones on hi... (in reply to estebanana)

I would have to guess at least a few of the old recordings of Sabicas & co. were made with ribbon mics, namely= RCA.

These mics are highly regarded and quite rare now. A vintage 50's RCA ribbon would cost you gobs of money. Thats if you can even find anybody willing to part with one.

A brand new one will set you back anywhere from 5 to 8 grand, and up from there.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2010 20:55:08

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Effects of old microphones on hi... (in reply to estebanana)

Good point, Todd. I've seen some of those old ribbons, but never had my hands on one.

I've read recommendations to use a small diaphragm condenser and a ribbon, at the same distance to get the phase right, and mixing the two. Ever tried that?

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2010 18:09:58

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Effects of old microphones on hi... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

I've read recommendations to use a small diaphragm condenser and a ribbon, at the same distance to get the phase right, and mixing the two. Ever tried that?

i do have a couple of Russian ribbon mics made by Oktava. They are extremely
flat response, and very low output. You need a very robust preamp to get
the mic signal up to usable level.

Generally, i use them for instruments that are loud and harsh, like tamborine,
big shakers, horns, things like that.
They would be too dark for acoustic guitar. The RCA ribbons probably have a bit more presence to them, but with that same natural, organic vibe that all ribbon have.

I hope to land one someday. :)
TK

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2010 20:24:21