Meaning of "Por"

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Meaning of "Por"

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aammaguiar

Posts: 20
Joined: Aug. 25 2004
From: Detroit, USA

Meaning of "Por"

Would someone be so kind as to explain what "por" means. For example "solea por bulerias". Has it got to do with tempo or scale or something else. Is it used for baile only or does it apply to cante as well. Is "solea por bulerias" the only one or is there something like "solea por alegrias", "alegrias por bulerias" etc. And is it used only for the 12 beat cadences like solea, alegrias and bulerias. Would appreciate the education.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2004 19:02:27

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Meaning of "Por" (in reply to aammaguiar)

Por means "for" or "by", roughly.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2004 21:10:04

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Meaning of "Por" (in reply to aammaguiar)

To add to what Mike said, it has nothing to do with tempo/scale and is certainly used when discussing accompnaying - whether cante or baile. For example I would say last night I played por tangos at the dance class, mean that last night I accompanied the class playing some tangos.

The term is not restricted to the twelve beat palos.

Whilst Solea Por Bulerias is best thought of as a style in itself, there is another usage of 'por' that I am unsure of, that I'm sure one of the others will explain, and that's when you start playing in one palo (eg Solea or Alegria) and then speed things up and end with a buleria. I'm not sure whether 'por' is used here?

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2004 8:32:10

bailoro2000

Posts: 93
Joined: Jul. 7 2003

RE: Meaning of "Por" (in reply to aammaguiar)

Por is a bit of a flexible word. It can also mean "of", or "about" in the sense of some of the titles of Camaron's albums for example: Por Tangos, Por Fandangos, Por Solea, Por Bulerias etc etc, where each album is devoted to just one type of palo. Generally it is just used to mean "for". The easist English translation for "Sole por bulerias" is "solea ending in bulerias", where a bulerias or other chico flamenco is played to lighten the mood of the more serious palos and finish in lighter vein..

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2004 9:43:41

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Meaning of "Por" (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

Por means "for"

I understand that "por" means "for" only when "in exchange for something else". Perhaps this is the sense of solea "in exchange" for buleria?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2004 10:15:58

bailoro2000

Posts: 93
Joined: Jul. 7 2003

RE: Meaning of "Por" (in reply to Escribano)

Which makes the word more flexible still, "por exemplo", por exemplo. Then of course there is "por medio" (-:

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2004 10:24:45

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Meaning of "Por" (in reply to bailoro2000)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bailoro2000

"por exemplo", por exemplo.

Jim.

Hmm Jim, that would be 'por ejemplo'

Kate, playing teacher

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2004 13:16:51

bailoro2000

Posts: 93
Joined: Jul. 7 2003

RE: Meaning of "Por" (in reply to Kate)

Por eso, I stand corrected Ma'am (((-:

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2004 13:50:48

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Meaning of "Por" (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

quote:

Por means "for"

I understand that "por" means "for" only when "in exchange for something else". Perhaps this is the sense of solea "in exchange" for buleria?

Por means many many things......

Por means 'for' as in "Esta valla es por los conejos" The fence is for the rabbits, as in 'because of' ie 'no podemos salir por la nieve', we cant go out because of the snow.

Por also indicates origin or inspiration of an emotion or mental state " Todo por la Patria" or "me fastidia por lo mal que canta"

Por can mean by, in passive construction " El suelo estaba cubierta por una alfombra"

Por can mean runs on, works by, by means of, as in "Se puede pagar por tarjeta de credito"

Por can mean in support of, 'Yo voté por los liberales'.

Por can mean exchange for, substitute for, " El dará la clase por mí" distrubution per "tres raciones por persona"

Por can mean 'for' when talking about money " un cheque por cien dolares"

Por can mean ' to judge by' "por lo visto" which mean apparantly

Por can mean in search of, 'Ha ido por agua' He went for water.

It also means however, "por fuerte que ustede griten', however loud you shout

It's used with various verbs, intersarse por , to be interested in, precocuparse por, to be worried about.

It is used in time and means 'in', 'Debío ser por mayo' as in 'it must have been in May'.

It also is a preposition of place, all over or throughout. "He viajado por España" as well as in, up to, through, out of, down "Se cayó por la escalera" and is use in conjunction with adverbs of place to denote direction " Por aqui', 'por allí', and in Andalucia 'por aca"

It also means 'times' as in '2 por 2 es 4'

And can mean something like that as in ' Es abagado o algo por el estilo' 'He's alawyer or dsomething of that ilk.

I'm sure theres many many more, these are scribbled notes from my university course, and referenced to a great book Butt and Benjamin's ' Grammar of Modern Spanish".

Now I just have to get them right when I speak

Welcome to the wonderful world of Spanish grammar.

Kate
ps its raining, that'll mean more snow on the mountains.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2004 13:52:01

Guest

RE: Meaning of "Por" (in reply to Kate)

quote:

Kate
ps its raining, that'll mean more snow on the mountains.

Sunny in Cadiz!!!

Great dissertation Kate; how about another one on "para". Spanish is not as easy as it seems, especially when you get mixed up with the flamencos.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2004 13:56:40

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Meaning of "Por" (in reply to Kate)

quote:

Now I just have to get them right when I speak

Thanks! I recall Estela commenting on this as a real killer for non-natives. I look forward to the challenge

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2004 13:57:12

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Meaning of "Por" (in reply to Guest)

Hey Sean envy you the sunshine, this weather is too British :) Keeps Granada green though.

Glad you thought my notes useful. I have some on Para as well, with a note NEVER to shorten it to "pa'" which of course I do all the time now living here and like you with flamencos

so this is pa' ti, odd notes from my student years which dont seem to have helped me all that much

Para is use to indicate purpose, object or destination, " Dos gardenias para ti" " Una mesa para dos" "Se preparó para saltar"

It also serves an ironic purpose as in "Se abstuvo durante años de fumar y beber para luego morir en un accidente de coche' He gave up fags and booze for years only to die in a car accident.

No es para tanto = Its not that serious.

Direction after verbs of motion, " ibamos para casa..." we were going home..., "Ya va para viejo" he's getting old now.

To indicate advantage, disadvantage usefulness and need. Such as "Fumar es malo para el salud" smoking is bad for the health. " Con esto tenemos para todos" with this we have enough for everybody. 'Es much dinero para tres noches' its a lot of money for three nights,

Reaction, response, mood, 'para mí no es justo', doesn;t seem fair to me.

No estoy para bromas - i'm not in the mood for jokes.

'for' when it means considering or in view of. " está muy alto para su edad", he's tall for his age.

'to' in certain reflexive verbs "me lo guardo para mi" I;m keeping it to myself

'about' in the meaning of 'on the point of" "estoy para llegar" I'm about to arrive

Para used in time, 'para las cinco', by 5 o'clock

For 5 days, para 5 días,

It also means around and towards,' Estará terminado para finales de Noviembre' It'll be finished by end of Nov.

And can mean 'nearly' Voy para cinco años sin fumar. I've gone nearly 5 years without smoking.

As well as 'Not enough to' and 'considering how much' " Fue bastante rapido para lo mucho que dicen tardarán' It was quick considering how much they went on that it would be late.

A basic distinction between por and para is that para expresses purpoe and destination and por cause or motive.
hago esto para ti , I'm doing this for you
hago esto por ti, I'm doing this because of you/on your behalf

In translation if you can replace 'for' with 'out of or 'because of' then por would be correct. "Lo hago por el dinero." I did it for money.

Hope this is helpful as well, interesting to look back a my old notes.

Kate

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2004 14:30:21

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Meaning of "Por" (in reply to aammaguiar)

Kate,
thanks for the extensive information. It goes to show that the "rules of grammar" are only a small part of the equation, and usage is really key. Just like in English. Or flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2004 16:26:43

aammaguiar

Posts: 20
Joined: Aug. 25 2004
From: Detroit, USA

RE: Meaning of "Por" (in reply to aammaguiar)

Thank you all for the explanations. I think I have a better understanding of the sense of "por" in the flamenco context. Really helps to have the kind of feedback you all sent. Appreciate it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2004 16:58:26